Savage Armoury: Weapon creation system

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CitizenKeen
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#101 Postby CitizenKeen » Sun Apr 07, 2013 10:30 pm

Zadmar, do you let your PCs take Armor Proficiency more than once?

Also, what -2 Abilities do you give the Chain Hauberk to cancel out the +1 Sleeves and +1 Leggings?

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#102 Postby Zadmar » Mon Apr 08, 2013 3:10 am

CitizenKeen wrote:Zadmar, do you let your PCs take Armor Proficiency more than once?

Not with the new armour creation rules, no. However the old system (which is now described in the "Simplified Armour" section on page 18) allows you to take it up to four times.

CitizenKeen wrote:Also, what -2 Abilities do you give the Chain Hauberk to cancel out the +1 Sleeves and +1 Leggings?

The armour creation system is an extension of the weapon creation system, which was based on the race creation system in FC/SWD. All three systems give you 2 abilities for free.

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#103 Postby CitizenKeen » Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:26 am

Zadmar wrote:
CitizenKeen wrote:Zadmar, do you let your PCs take Armor Proficiency more than once?

Not with the new armour creation rules, no. However the old system (which is now described in the "Simplified Armour" section on page 18) allows you to take it up to four times.


Right, the root of the question.

Zadmar wrote:
CitizenKeen wrote:Also, what -2 Abilities do you give the Chain Hauberk to cancel out the +1 Sleeves and +1 Leggings?

The armour creation system is an extension of the weapon creation system, which was based on the race creation system in FC/SWD. All three systems give you 2 abilities for free.


Of course. Thank you!
Last edited by CitizenKeen on Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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#104 Postby xxlgeeklord » Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:11 am

Hello! Been a while since I last commented here, but I got new ideas! :)

First of all I was thinking that you could add a Natural Armour Edge. You already have Natural Weapons, so the Natural Armour would work based on the same principle. Obviously it wouldn't be available to normal humans or whatever, but it could be used for Mutant Edges, Cyberware Edges, or to help out in the Race Creator by giving it the starting Edge Natural Armour. It's just a little idea I had.

Also, I'm not entirely sure, but I believe you have an error on page 6 under the Natural Weapons. You see, I think I heard from Clint that using multiple weapons that grant a bonus to Parry only grants you the highest bonus. So using two rapiers would still only give +1 Parry. Consequently would having two claws with the ability to grant +1 Parry not still only give +1 Parry, instead of +2 Parry according to the document?

Also I disagree with the gunpowder requirement on some of the abilities, like Power(under Two-Handed). I think that a magical weapon, a very large and powerful crossbow, or a futuristic weapon should have access to this ability, not only guns. Please either remove these, edit them, or tell me you reasons for not doing so so that we can have healthy discussin again :wink:

Looking forward to your reply :-D

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#105 Postby Zadmar » Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:49 am

xxlgeeklord wrote:First of all I was thinking that you could add a Natural Armour Edge. You already have Natural Weapons, so the Natural Armour would work based on the same principle. Obviously it wouldn't be available to normal humans or whatever, but it could be used for Mutant Edges, Cyberware Edges, or to help out in the Race Creator by giving it the starting Edge Natural Armour. It's just a little idea I had.

I considered adding one for a while, but couldn't come up with a solution I was entirely happy with, plus it's very much a supernatural ability (while Natural Weapons also covers martial arts). One of the other documents I'm working on provides a more extensive race creation system using my Primal Edges from Supernaturalis, and that does have a Natural Armour Edge. So I'll probably leave it out of Savage Armoury.

xxlgeeklord wrote:Also, I'm not entirely sure, but I believe you have an error on page 6 under the Natural Weapons. You see, I think I heard from Clint that using multiple weapons that grant a bonus to Parry only grants you the highest bonus. So using two rapiers would still only give +1 Parry. Consequently would having two claws with the ability to grant +1 Parry not still only give +1 Parry, instead of +2 Parry according to the document?

By the core rules, and barring setting rules (such as the main gauche in Solomon Kane), you're right. However Savage Armoury replaces the weapon system in the core rules, and Parry bonuses for each hand stack as described in the "Defensive Weapons" section on page 9.

xxlgeeklord wrote:Also I disagree with the gunpowder requirement on some of the abilities, like Power(under Two-Handed). I think that a magical weapon, a very large and powerful crossbow, or a futuristic weapon should have access to this ability, not only guns. Please either remove these, edit them, or tell me you reasons for not doing so so that we can have healthy discussin again :wink:

The reason is to avoid people creating automatic crossbows, or bows that inflict 2d10 damage, while still making it possible to create flamethrowers or high-powered rifles in modern settings.

However there's no reason why you can't change it for your own games. For example I allow wands and staves to take the "Gun" ability (and remove the noise as a +1 ability). That's fine for my Eberron campaign, as magic is supposed to be widely available, and I'm trying to emphasise the "magic as technology" aspect of the setting. But it probably wouldn't be appropriate for most fantasy settings, where ranged weapons tend to be significantly weaker than modern firearms.

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#106 Postby xxlgeeklord » Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:16 am

I can understand your arguments, but isn't doubling the Parry bonus if you use Natural Weapons a bit overpowered? Because you get double the Parry bonus for the same amount of points. Also Natural Weapons have the advantage that you can never be disarmed, don't have to draw your weapon and never need to be repaired. I understand you're paying an Edge for it, but that seems a little too strong for my taste.

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#107 Postby Zadmar » Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:29 am

xxlgeeklord wrote:I can understand your arguments, but isn't doubling the Parry bonus if you use Natural Weapons a bit overpowered? Because you get double the Parry bonus for the same amount of points.

Or you can take Two-Handed for +1, giving you an ability worth 4 points, for a net benefit of +3 - which is the same value as +1 Parry.

xxlgeeklord wrote:Also Natural Weapons have the advantage that you can never be disarmed, don't have to draw your weapon and never need to be repaired.

You still have to "draw" them, unless you also take Always Ready - and that's a +3 weapon ability, the same as taking Mystic Edge (Quick Draw).

xxlgeeklord wrote:I understand you're paying an Edge for it, but that seems a little too strong for my taste.

For the price of an Edge, you have one type of weapon that can't be disarmed or broken.

Note that you can recreate Martial Artist using Natural Weapons. Is Martial Artist too strong?

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#108 Postby CitizenKeen » Mon Apr 08, 2013 1:48 pm

Zadmar, another question because I'm terrible at math and details (thank you in advance):

Short Bow.
  • Medium Range for +1, so its range is 4/8/12.
  • Ammo for +4, so its range is doubled, 8/16/24
  • Two Handed Bonus is Ranged, so its ranged is tripled, 24/48/72

Alternatively, you could apply the tripling before the doubling, resulting in 4/8/12 -> 12/24/48 -> 24/48/72, to the same end.

Yet the list shows its range as 12/24/48. Is assume you tripled but did not double for Ammo. I assume I'm missing something. Please help?

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#109 Postby Zadmar » Mon Apr 08, 2013 2:15 pm

They're not supposed to stack. Ammo doubles the base range, Two-Handed (Range) upgrades it to triple the base range, so you just use the highest.

Note that you can only take Two Handed (Range) if you've already taken Ammo.

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#110 Postby CitizenKeen » Mon Apr 08, 2013 2:20 pm

Zadmar wrote:They're not supposed to stack. Ammo doubles the base range, Two-Handed (Range) upgrades it to triple the base range, so you just use the highest.

Note that you can only take Two Handed (Range) if you've already taken Ammo.


Once again, thank you!

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#111 Postby xxlgeeklord » Mon Apr 08, 2013 3:39 pm

Zadmar wrote:
xxlgeeklord wrote:I can understand your arguments, but isn't doubling the Parry bonus if you use Natural Weapons a bit overpowered? Because you get double the Parry bonus for the same amount of points.

Or you can take Two-Handed for +1, giving you an ability worth 4 points, for a net benefit of +3 - which is the same value as +1 Parry.

xxlgeeklord wrote:Also Natural Weapons have the advantage that you can never be disarmed, don't have to draw your weapon and never need to be repaired.

You still have to "draw" them, unless you also take Always Ready - and that's a +3 weapon ability, the same as taking Mystic Edge (Quick Draw).

xxlgeeklord wrote:I understand you're paying an Edge for it, but that seems a little too strong for my taste.

For the price of an Edge, you have one type of weapon that can't be disarmed or broken.

Note that you can recreate Martial Artist using Natural Weapons. Is Martial Artist too strong?


The Two-handed ability is balanced by the fact that you can dual-wield one-handed weapons, and that you have one hand free for shields or whatever else. So it now has an additional disadvantage.
Now that you've talked about this, I'm tempted to make the kamehameha with these rules :lol:

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#112 Postby Zadmar » Mon Apr 08, 2013 3:58 pm

xxlgeeklord wrote:The Two-handed ability is balanced by the fact that you can dual-wield one-handed weapons, and that you have one hand free for shields or whatever else. So it now has an additional disadvantage.

From the Two-Handed Weapons section on page 10: "The Two-Handed ability costs 1 point, and grants you an ability worth 4 points, for a net gain of 3 points. This is intended to compensate for the lack of a free hand, which might otherwise use a shield (+1 Parry being worth 3 ability points) or another weapon."

I'm not sure what the additional disadvantage is. That seems fairly balanced to me.

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#113 Postby Zadmar » Mon Oct 14, 2013 10:36 am

For those wishing to use Savage Armoury in their Shaintar campaigns, I recommend the following conversions:

Melee Weapons

Aevakar Sky Lance
Reach (+3): 1” reach when the other hand doesn’t attack.
High Damage (+2): The Sky Lance inflicts d8 damage.
Penetrating (+1): The Sky Lance has AP 1.
Carried (-2): Must always be carried.
Expensive (-1): The Sky Lance is expensive to buy and repair.
Airborne (-1): Treat as improvised weapon (-1 attack/Parry) when wielder isn’t flying.

Axe: As handaxe.

Bastard Sword: As bastard sword.

Battle Axe: As battleaxe.

Cavalier Parrying Dirk: As main gauche.

Cavalier Saber: As shortsword.

Chuktar
Strong Defence (+3): +1 Parry while holding the Chuktar.
Two-Handed (+1): Requires both hands. The Chuktar inflicts d10 damage.
Tough (+1): The Chuktar has Toughness 12.
Expensive (-1): The Chuktar is expensive to buy and repair.
Unwieldy (-1): -2 to conceal, requires an Agility roll to draw.
Heavy (-1): Counts as two significant items.

Club
Crude (+2): The club is dirt cheap.
Light (+1): The club doesn’t count as a significant item for encumbrance.
Two-Handed (+1): Can optionally be used two-handed, this increases damage to d6.
Low Damage (-2): The club inflicts d4 damage.

Dagger/Knife: As Dagger.

Dwarven Axe: As battleaxe, but add Expensive and Penetrating.

Elvish Long Sword (+5 weapon, this requires the Magical Heirloom Edge)
Strong Defence (+3): +1 Parry while holding the Elvish Long Sword.
High Damage (+2): The Elvish Long Sword inflicts d8 damage.
Elemental (+1): White Silver.
Penetrating (+1): The Elvish Long Sword has AP 1.
Masterwork (-2): Very expensive to repair (cannot normally be bought).

Elvish Rapier (+5 weapon, this requires the Magical Heirloom Edge)
Strong Defence (+3): +1 Parry while holding the Elvish Rapier.
High Penetration (+2): The Elvish Rapier has AP 2.
Elemental (+1): White Silver.
Light (+1): The Elvish Rapier doesn’t count as a significant item for encumbrance.
Masterwork (-2): Very expensive to repair (cannot normally be bought).

Flail: As flail.

Great Axe: As greataxe.

Great Sword: As greatsword.

Halberd: As halberd.

Ironwood Club
Cheap (+1): Relatively cheap to buy.
Tough (+1): The Ironwood Club has Toughness 12.

Ironwood Staff
Strong Defence (+3): +1 Parry while holding the staff.
Two-Handed (+1): Requires both hands. 1” reach.
Carried (-2): Must always be carried.

Kal Flail (also treated as Dangerous without training, but training doesn't cost exp)
Strong Offence (+3): +1 to Fighting rolls made with this weapon.
Extreme Raise Die (+2): +d10 damage on a raise.
Bludgeoning (+1): AP 2 vs. rigid armour.
Two-Handed (+1): Requires both hands. Inflicts d10 damage.
Weak Defence (-3): -1 Parry while holding the Kal Flail.
Unwieldy (-1): -2 to conceal, requires an Agility roll to draw.
Expensive (-1): The Kal Flail is expensive to buy and repair.

Kayakor (+5 weapon, this requires the Magical Heirloom Edge)
Very High Damage (+4): Inflicts d10 damage.
Strong Defence (+3): +1 Parry while holding the Kayakor.
Two-Handed (+1): Requires both hands. 1” reach.
Penetrating (+1): The Kayakor has AP 1.
Tough (+1): The Kayakor has Toughness 12.
Masterwork (-2): Each Kayakor is a hand-crafted work of art.
Carried (-2): Must always be carried.
Heavy (-1): Counts as two significant items.

Korindian Fighting Sticks
Strong Defence (+3): +1 Parry while holding a Korindian Fighting Stick.
Light (+1): Doesn’t count as a significant item for encumbrance.
Low Damage (-2): Inflicts d4 damage.

Lance: As lance.

Long Sword: As longsword.

Lo-sska
High Damage (+2): The Lo-sska inflicts d8 damage.
Tough (+1): The Lo-sska has Toughness 12.
Expensive (-1): Expensive to buy and repair.

Maul: As maul.

Ogre Axe
High Damage (+2): Enhanced damage (see below).
Two-Handed (+1): Requires both hands. Inflicts d12 damage.
Penetrating (+1): The Ogre Axe has AP 1.
Tough (+1): The Ogre Axe has Toughness 12.
Very Heavy (-2): Counts as three significant items, requires Size 2+.
Expensive (-1): Expensive to buy and repair.

Ogre Club
Two-Handed (+1): Requires both hands. Inflicts d10 damage.
Cheap (+1): Relatively cheap to buy.
Tough (+1): The Ogre Club has Toughness 12.
Bludgeoning (+1): AP 2 vs. rigid armour.
Very Heavy (-2): Counts as three significant items, requires Size 2+.

Ogre Mace
Very High Damage (+4): Inflicts d10 damage.
Tough (+1): The Ogre Mace has Toughness 12.
Bludgeoning (+1): AP 2 vs. rigid armour.
Very Heavy (-2): Counts as three significant items, requires Size 2+.
Expensive (-1): Expensive to buy and repair.
Unwieldy (-1): -2 to conceal, requires an Agility roll to draw.

Ogre Siege Maul (can only be used by someone with Siege Strength).
Heavy Weapon (+3): Counts as a Heavy Weapon.
Very Tough (+2): The Ogre Siege Maul has Toughness 15.
High Damage (+2): Enhanced damage (see below).
Two-Handed (+1): Requires both hands. Inflicts d12 damage.
Penetrating (+1): The Ogre Siege Maul has AP 1.
Weak Defence (-3): -1 Parry while holding this weapon.
Very Heavy (-2): Counts as three significant items, requires Size 2+.
Masterwork (-2): Treated as Masterwork for purposes of price and availability.

Ogre Sword
Very High Damage (+4): Inflicts d10 damage.
Two-Handed (+1): Can optionally be used two-handed, this increases damage to d12.
Tough (+1): The Ogre Sword has Toughness 12.
Very Heavy (-2): Counts as three significant items, requires Size 2+.
Masterwork (-2): Treated as Masterwork for purposes of price and availability.

Olaran Two-Handed Sword
Reach (+3): +1" melee reach.
Two-Handed (+1): Requires both hands. Inflicts d10 damage.
Heavy (-1): Counts as two significant items.
Expensive (-1): Expensive to buy and repair.

Pike: As pike.

Rapier: As rapier.

Rrka
Strong Defence (+3): +1 Parry while holding a Rrka.
Expensive (-1): Expensive to buy and repair.

Saber: As shortsword.

Short Sword: As shortsword.

Spear: As spear.

Staff: As staff.

Warhammer/Mace: As warhammer or mace respectively.

Ranged Weapons

Axe, throwing: As throwing axe.

Bow: As bow.

Crossbow: As crossbow.

Dagger/Knife: As dagger.

Dwarven Crossbow (+5 weapon, this requires the Magical Heirloom Edge)
Ammo (+4): The Dwarven Crossbow is a missile weapon that inflicts 2d6 damage.
Accuracy (+4): The base range of the weapon is tripled instead of doubled.
Long Range (+3): The base range is 5/10/20.
High Penetration (+2): The Dwarven Crossbow has AP 2.
Two-Handed (+1): Requires both hands. Range increased to 20/40/80.
Non-Melee (-4): Treated as improvised weapon in melee.
Very Limited Ammo (-2): Three shots before it needs to be reloaded.
Masterwork (-2): Treated as Masterwork for purposes of price and availability.
Unwieldy (-1): -2 to conceal, requires an Agility roll to draw.

Elvish Longbow (+5 weapon, this requires the Magical Heirloom Edge)
Ammo (+4): The Elvish Longbow is a missile weapon that inflicts 2d6 damage.
Extreme Range (+4): The base range is 6/12/24.
High Powered (+2): Increases the ranged damage to 2d6+1.
Two-Handed (+1): Requires both hands. Range increased to 18/36/72.
Elemental (+1): Everwood.
Non-Melee (-4): Treated as improvised weapon in melee.
Masterwork (-2): Treated as Masterwork for purposes of price and availability.
Fragile (-1): The Elvish Longbow has Toughness 8.

Goblin Bow
Ammo (+4): The Goblin Bow is a missile weapon that inflicts 2d6 damage.
Short Range (+1): The base range is 3/6/9.
Two-Handed (+1): Requires both hands. Range increased to 9/18/36.
Light (+1): No longer counts as a significant item for encumbrance.
Cheap (+1): Relatively cheap to buy.
Non-Melee (-4): Treated as improvised weapon in melee.
Low Powered (-2): Decrease the ranged damage to 2d4+1.

Handbow: Use hand crossbow.

Nazatiran Throwing Spikes
Medium Range (+2): The spikes can be thrown with a range of 4/8/16.
Crude (+2): Individually cheap and easily replaced.
Concealable (+1): +2 Agility to draw, opponents suffer -2 Notice to spot the spikes.
Penetrating (+1): The spikes have AP 1.
Light (+1): The spikes don't count as a significant item for encumbrance.
High Raise Die (+1): Inflicts +d8 damage on a raise.
Low Damage (-2): The spikes inflict d4 damage.
Non-Melee (-4): Treated as improvised weapon in melee.

Sling: As sling.

Spear: As spear.

Shields

Bracers: A pair of combat bracers counts as one significant item and require Agility d8 to use. They grant Strong Defence to one of your arms each round as long as that arm wasn't used to attack on your last action (this doesn't stack if the arm already has Strong Defence).

Small Shield: Use buckler.

Medium Shield: Use target shield.

Large Shield: Use kite shield.

Tower Shield: Use tower shield.

Kalinesh Spike Shield
Strong Defence (+3): +1 Parry while holding the target shield.
Cover (+2): Provides light/medium cover vs. ranged attacks.
Tough (+1): The target shield has Toughness 12 (instead of 10).
Low Damage (-2): The target shield inflicts d4 damage.
Expensive (-1): Expensive to buy and repair.
Heavy (-1): Counts as two significant items.

Armour

I've split armour into three categories: Mundane, exotic and potent. For mundane armour you can either replace it with the armour creation rules from Savage Armoury, or you can use a rough conversion of the Shaintar armour (which isn't quite balanced but is much easier) as follows:

Partial Leather: Counts as one significant item. Cheap. Faster to don/doff.

Full Leather: Counts one significant item. Cheap.

Partial Scale: Counts as one significant item. Faster to don/doff.

Full Scale: Counts two significant items.

Partial Chain: Counts as two significant items. Expensive. Faster to don/doff.

Full Chain: Counts three significant items. Expensive.

Partial Plate & Chain: Counts as three significant items. Masterwork (price). Faster to don/doff.

Full Plate & Chain: Counts four significant items. Masterwork (price).

Partial Plate: Counts as four significant items. Masterwork (price). Faster to don/doff.

Full Plate: Counts five significant items. Masterwork (price).

Exotic armour is unusual but still fairly well balanced against the other types, as follows:

Korindian Studded: Treat as scalemail, but it's made from seashells and stones instead of metal.

Dregordian Scale: Treat as chainmail, but it's actually made from drake scales.

Dwarvish Plate: Treat as full plate, but with +1 armour, +2 encumbrance, and double the cost.

Potent armour is more powerful than the other armour types, and should therefore require the character to take the Magical Heirloom Edge (if you waive this requirement, be aware that you're giving the player the equivalent of a free Edge):

White Silver Chain: Requires Magical Heirloom. Treat as chainmail but with +1 armour and -1 encumbrance.

Shay’Von Leather: Requires Magical Heirloom. Treat as leather but with +1 armour and +2 to Soak rolls.

Cavalier Armor: Requires Magical Heirloom. Treat as any non-leather but also grants +1 Parry.

Shayakar Night Chain: Requires Magical Heirloom. Treat as chainmail but with +2 to Stealth at night and in shadows, and -2 encumbrance.

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#114 Postby Chaosmeister » Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:59 am

I just switched my campaign over to this and converting amd creating stuff is really fun. One thing I am a bit unsure about is shields. Is the only advantage using a shield in melee the +1 parry bonus? It feels a bit counterintuitive that all shields give the same melee defence bonus and only have differences in cover against range. Or am I missing something?
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#115 Postby Zadmar » Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:22 am

Chaosmeister wrote:I just switched my campaign over to this and converting amd creating stuff is really fun. One thing I am a bit unsure about is shields. Is the only advantage using a shield in melee the +1 parry bonus? It feels a bit counterintuitive that all shields give the same melee defence bonus and only have differences in cover against range. Or am I missing something?

A shield in Savage Armoury is really just another type of weapon, and weapons are each limited to +1 Parry - although they stack, so you can have a total of +2 Parry from using two weapons each with Strong Defence.

Bear in mind that in the core rules a shield only gives its Parry bonus against attacks from the front and one side, while defensive weapons (such as the rapier, staff, etc) provide their Parry bonus to all sides. Equally, flails in the core rules ignore the Parry bonus of shields, but not rapiers, spears, etc. So the Savage Armoury shields are actually better than the small and medium shields in the core rules.

The only exception is the large shield in the core rules, which gives +2 Parry (at least against non-flails from the front and side). It also has Weight 20, so it's not something my players ever used.

But if you really want that large shield, I'd suggest allowing weapons with Cover and Heavy to take Strong Defence twice, with the limitation that it does not stack with the other hand (i.e., you're still limited to a total of +2 Parry).

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#116 Postby Lord Inar » Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:45 am

To reiterate the question (I think):
How can recreate a kite shield using these rules, since you can't take an ability (+1 Parry) more than once.

[Edit: Zadmar beat me to it!]

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#117 Postby Lord Inar » Tue Oct 15, 2013 12:00 pm

I thought about the "not combining" restriction and tried to come up a few new rules, and how to make a Large shield using those new rules:

New abilities:
+4 Extreme Controlled Defense: +2 Parry that cannot be combined with other sources
+2 Controlled Defense: +1 Parry that cannot be combined with other sources

Large Shield
Cover (Large Shield): +2
Non-Melee: -4
Heavy: -1
Tough: +1
Extreme Controlled Defense: +4

[I noticed the Non-Melee is supposed to apply only to ranged, but I can see it applying to anything where if you use it as a weapon, it is considered improvised and you lose the ability to use the weapon's positive modifiers (in the case of the large shield the defense and the cover)]

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#118 Postby Zadmar » Tue Oct 15, 2013 12:24 pm

Lord Inar wrote:I thought about the "not combining" restriction and tried to come up a few new rules, and how to make a Large shield using those new rules:

New abilities:
+4 Extreme Controlled Defense: +2 Parry that cannot be combined with other sources
+2 Controlled Defense: +1 Parry that cannot be combined with other sources

That would give people an incentive to put all of their Parry bonus onto one weapon. It also means you'd be lowering the Parry cost for two-handed weapons (as they don't have another source to stack with).

Thinking about it a bit more, I'm actually not that keen on the non-stacking either. Normally, because the Parry stacks (but can only be taken once per weapon), a character who wants to be great at defence has to sacrifice some of their offence, so that they can afford the Parry bonus on both weapons. You end up with combos like the rapier and main gauche, which I think is pretty cool.

Allowing people to shift all of their Parry to one side would push things in favour of sword & board - particularly if they get a discount for it as well.

Lord Inar wrote:I noticed the Non-Melee is supposed to apply only to ranged, but I can see it applying to anything where if you use it as a weapon, it is considered improvised and you lose the ability to use the weapon's positive modifiers (in the case of the large shield the defense and the cover)

Improvised weapons also suffer -1 to attack and -1 Parry.

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#119 Postby Lord Inar » Tue Oct 15, 2013 12:37 pm

Zadmar wrote:
Lord Inar wrote:I noticed the Non-Melee is supposed to apply only to ranged, but I can see it applying to anything where if you use it as a weapon, it is considered improvised and you lose the ability to use the weapon's positive modifiers (in the case of the large shield the defense and the cover)

Improvised weapons also suffer -1 to attack and -1 Parry.


Hmm, maybe they lose cover and if they decide to use it as a weapon, its parry value drops to 1.

OK, there might be other ways to make it work.
Is there a penalty that makes a weapon require 1 die type higher to use?
That would make a Large Shield require a d6 to use (which actually makes some sense). Would this be a -1 ability or -2?
If it is -2, then maybe a large shield is Very Tough.

Get rid of the "normal" controlled defense and increase the cost of the +2

+5 Controlled Defense: +2 Parry that cannot be combined with other sources (may not be Light)

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#120 Postby Zadmar » Tue Oct 15, 2013 2:15 pm

Lord Inar wrote:Is there a penalty that makes a weapon require 1 die type higher to use?

No, for the reasons I outlined here. You could make the shield Heavy though (as I suggested earlier).

Lord Inar wrote:Get rid of the "normal" controlled defense and increase the cost of the +2

+5 Controlled Defense: +2 Parry that cannot be combined with other sources (may not be Light)

If anything I'd have the +2 Parry cost more than two +1 bonuses, not less. But thinking about it, even that wouldn't really solve the problem.

Look at it from the perspective of a typical warrior who only attacks with one weapon. Normally he can either use a two-handed weapon (which gives him +3 points) or he can use a defensive weapon in his off-hand (which gives +1 Parry, worth +3 points). If he wants an extra +1 Parry then it has to use 3 points from his primary weapon, so he'll be better defensively but worse offensively.

However if he can put the full +2 Parry on his off-hand (which he isn't actually using for anything else anyway) then he effectively has an additional +3 weapon abilities on his main weapon. It's like having a free Edge. Two-handed weapons would become obsolete. You could beef up two-handed weapons, but then paired weapons would fall behind.

If you want +2 Parry on a shield, I think I'd have to take a leaf out of Shaintar's book, and say it gives you a -1 penalty to all your Fighting attacks.


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