Savage Armoury: Weapon creation system

Just got your book, can't find a copy, have a cool adventure idea or story? Chat about it here.

Moderators: PEG Jodi, The Moderators

Message
Author
ValhallaGH
Legendary
Posts: 8293
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:15 pm

#81 Postby ValhallaGH » Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:33 pm

I don't have permission to look at it, geeklord. You'll want to change the access limitations.

User avatar
xxlgeeklord
Seasoned
Posts: 249
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:20 pm

#82 Postby xxlgeeklord » Sat Dec 15, 2012 5:05 pm

ValhallaGH wrote:I don't have permission to look at it, geeklord. You'll want to change the access limitations.


Sorry, forgot about that. You should be able to access it now.

User avatar
xxlgeeklord
Seasoned
Posts: 249
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:20 pm

#83 Postby xxlgeeklord » Sat Dec 15, 2012 6:32 pm

BTW, I was thinking it would be awesome if this was expanded with a custom vehicle creation system. That would allow the vehicular weapons to have some use, as I cannot find some other way to easily integrate them into the game.

User avatar
Zadmar
Legendary
Posts: 3290
Age: 42
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:59 am
Location: Munich
Contact:

#84 Postby Zadmar » Sun Dec 16, 2012 4:50 pm

xxlgeeklord wrote:Hello, I still think your work is pure awesome. I wanted to make it possible to awesome-iefy your armor as well, though, which made me unwilling to use that part of your rules. I don't know if I sould have posted this in a seperate topic, but I've created a bit of a prototype armor maker here that works based on the rules in the Savage Armoury.

Custom Armor Creator

Please give me your opinion on this and any things that you(or anyone else on the forums) think should be changed/added/deleted/whatevered.

Thank you!

I like it a lot, you've convinced me that a point-buy system would work well for armour as well. A few thoughts though:

1) In the race creation rules, Hardy is a +4 ability. In Savage Armoury I treated it as the equivalent of +3, balanced against the fact that Bludgeoning weapons are particularly effective against Rigid armour. However I've since realised that Hardy is pretty weak, even before factoring in Bludgeoning weapons. So I wouldn't price Rigid as any higher than +2.

2) I'd classify Very Cursed as a -2 ability, rather than -3.

3) I would personally prefer not to let armour have a Parry bonus (except perhaps for magic armour, by taking Block as a Mystic Edge). I don't think any non-magical armour should give you a better chance of avoiding being hit than being unarmoured.

4) I'd suggest making the default armour 2, as it makes it easier to balance the numbers, and also allows you to make light armour -2 and heavy armour +2, with clothing at -4 and modern armour +4.

5) Rather than a Relic ability and edge, I'd suggest allowing Magical Heirloom to apply to either a weapon or suit of armour.

6) It'd be nice to include ablative armour, but I'm not sure how that would be priced. I'll have to update my combat simulator to see how strong it is.

7) I'm not entirely sure how I'd handle the AP negation of kevlar, particularly as Savage Armoury weapons only go up to AP 2. In modern settings it basically means "ignore all AP from any firearm other than vehicle-mounted and anti-tank guns" (which are likely to kill you outright anyway). The Barrett and M2 Browning have AP 4, but all the other non-vehicle weapons have AP 2 or lower. So overall I'd be inclined to treat it as a +2 ability.

8) The idea of value adjustments for tech-level is a great idea, although I wonder if they might be better handled as abilities.

9) I wonder if helmets should be included as well, or if they should have a separate mechanic?

Here's how I'm considering handling it:

Making Armour

Each suit of armour begins with base Armour 2 (medium armour), protects the torso, costs $250, has 2 points of armour abilities, and is considered three significant items for encumbrance purposes. Additional positive abilities must be countered with an equal value of negative ones, and each ability cannot be taken more than once, nor can an ability be taken if it renders another ability obsolete.

If the armour has any armour modifiers, these are added to the base Armour. For example Enhanced Armor (armour 4) with Kevlar Inserts (+4 armour vs bullets) would have armour 8 vs bullets and armour 4 vs other damage types.

+4 Abilities

* Enhanced Armour: Base Armour 4 (modern or magic only).
* Kevlar Inserts: +4 armour vs bullets (modern only).
* Highly Reflective: +4 armour vs lasers (futuristic only).
* Improved Elemental: +4 armour vs one energy type (magic only).

+3 Abilities

* Mystic Edge: Gain one specific Edge when wearing this armour (magic only).
* Extremely Light: No longer counts as a significant item for encumbrance.

+2 Abilities

* Heavily Reinforced: +2 armour except on a raise.
* Heavy Armour: Base Armour 3.
* Rigid: The armour is classified as Rigid, granting the wearer Hardy (not clothing).
* Kevlar: +2 armour vs bullets (modern only).
* Reflective: +2 armour vs lasers (futuristic only).
* Very Light: Count as one significant item for encumbrance.
* Elemental: +2 armour vs one energy type (magic only).
* Crude: Costs $10 to buy, and the repair cost is quartered.
* Environmental: +2 Vigor bonus to resist all negative environmental effects (futuristic only).
* Impenetrable: Negates up to 4 AP from one damage source (Kevlar, Reflective or Elemental only).

+1 Abilities

* Reinforced: +1 armour except on a raise.
* Sleeves: Armour also protects the arms.
* Leggings: Armour also protects the legs.
* Light: Count as two significant items for encumbrance.
* Cheap: Costs $100 to buy, and the repair cost is halved.
* Concealable: Can be worn inconspicuously under heavy clothing.
* Comfortable: You can sleep in this armour without penalty.
* Fast Don: May don or doff the armour as a normal action.
* Insulated: +2 Vigor bonus to resist one negative environmental effect (heat, cold, etc).

-4 Abilities

* Clothing: Base Armour 0.

-3 Abilities

* Extremely Heavy: Count as six significant items for encumbrance.
* Futuristic Technology: High-tech construction, double the final base Armour value (futuristic only).
* Bulky: -1 Parry.

-2 Abilities

* Light Armour: Base Armour 1.
* Very Heavy: Count as five significant items for encumbrance.
* Masterwork: Costs costs $1000 to buy, and the repair cost is quadrupled.
* Major Hindrance: Wearing this armour gives you a Major Hindrance (magic only).
* Very Awkward: Half Pace, -1 step to running die, standing from prone costs 3".
* Modern Technology: Armour has been built using modern techniques (modern only).

-1 Abilities

* Heavy: Count as four significant items for encumbrance.
* Expensive: Costs $500 to buy, and the repair cost is doubled.
* Awkward: -1 Pace, and getting up from Prone costs 3" instead of 2".
* Minor Hindrance: Wearing this armour gives you a Minor Hindrance (magic only).
* Obvious: Highly conspicuous, noisy and easy to spot, -2 to Stealth rolls.
* Uncomfortable: Roll vs Bumps and Bruises after any scene in which you rolled snake eyes.
* Slow Don: Several minutes to don the armour, dramatic task to doff in emergencies.

Here's how I'd reproduce the medieval armour from the core rules:

* Leather: Cheap (+1), Sleeves (+1), Leggings (+1), Light (+1), Light Armour (-2)
* Chain Hauberk: Sleeves (+1), Leggings (+1)
* Plate Corselet: Heavy Armour (+2)
* Full Plate: Heavy Armour (+2), Sleeves (+1), Leggings (+1), Very Heavy (-2)

Not sure how I'd do the modern armour though. My price estimates come out as follows:

* Flak Jacket: Kevlar (+2), Very Light (+2), Cheap (+1), Modern Technology (-2)
* Kevlar vest: Impenetrable (+2), Kevlar (+2), Very Light (+2), Modern Technology (-2)
* Kevlar vest w/inserts: Enhanced Armour (+4), Kevlar Inserts (+4), Impenetrable (+2), Very Light (+2), Really Expensive (-3), Modern Technology (-2)

That's +3, +4 and +7. I guess they could be done like this instead:

* Flak Jacket: Kevlar (+2), Light (+1), Cheap (+1), Modern Technology (-2)
* Kevlar vest: Impenetrable (+2), Kevlar (+2), Modern Technology (-2)
* Kevlar vest w/inserts: Enhanced Armour (+4), Kevlar Inserts (+4), Impenetrable (+2), Really Expensive (-3), Bulky (-3), Modern Technology (-2)

Although as with the weapons, there's no reason why the players couldn't adjust the values - perhaps creating lighter but more expensive versions.

I guess you could even have a kevlar t-shirt:

* Kevlar t-shirt: Extremely Light (+3), Kevlar (+2), Impenetrable (+2), Concealable (+1), Comfortable (+1), Clothing (-4), Modern Technology (-2), Expensive (-1)

Probably not very realistic, but it would gives +0/+2 armour and negate 4 points of AP from guns.

xxlgeeklord wrote:BTW, I was thinking it would be awesome if this was expanded with a custom vehicle creation system. That would allow the vehicular weapons to have some use, as I cannot find some other way to easily integrate them into the game.

A vehicle creation system would be cool (if there isn't one already), but probably outside the scope of Savage Armoury. You shouldn't need it to create vehicular weapons though.

Orvar1111
Novice
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2012 7:01 am

#85 Postby Orvar1111 » Mon Dec 17, 2012 7:33 am

For helmets it could simply be a +1 ability, since to attack someone's head is already a called shot at -6 with +4 damage.

Also, the Armor Proficiency edge doesn't seem to have any place in this system.

User avatar
Zadmar
Legendary
Posts: 3290
Age: 42
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:59 am
Location: Munich
Contact:

#86 Postby Zadmar » Mon Dec 17, 2012 8:28 am

Orvar1111 wrote:For helmets it could simply be a +1 ability, since to attack someone's head is already a called shot at -6 with +4 damage.

It's -6 for the eyes, -4 would be the head. It could just be a +1 ability, but Savage Worlds tends to handle helmets separately from other armour. I think it would be nice to retain that concept.

Orvar1111 wrote:Also, the Armor Proficiency edge doesn't seem to have any place in this system.

You're right, it would need to be changed. I'd suggest allowing the character to ignore up to 3 significant items worth of encumbrance from worn armour.

User avatar
xxlgeeklord
Seasoned
Posts: 249
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:20 pm

#87 Postby xxlgeeklord » Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:46 am

Zadmar wrote:I like it a lot, you've convinced me that a point-buy system would work well for armour as well.

Well, I'm happy about that.
Zadmar wrote:A few thoughts though:

go ahead!
Zadmar wrote:1) In the race creation rules, Hardy is a +4 ability. In Savage Armoury I treated it as the equivalent of +3, balanced against the fact that Bludgeoning weapons are particularly effective against Rigid armour. However I've since realised that Hardy is pretty weak, even before factoring in Bludgeoning weapons. So I wouldn't price Rigid as any higher than +2.

Seems solid to me. I wasn't exactly sure where to place that, so I made it about equal to an Edge.
Zadmar wrote:2) I'd classify Very Cursed as a -2 ability, rather than -3.

Well, Very Cursed(I love the way it sounds) forces a Major Hindrance onto you which is the negative equivalent of an Edge. Thus -3.
Zadmar wrote:3) I would personally prefer not to let armour have a Parry bonus (except perhaps for magic armour, by taking Block as a Mystic Edge). I don't think any non-magical armour should give you a better chance of avoiding being hit than being unarmoured.

Makes sense. Then maybe it should be labled with '(magic)'. That way it can only be taken on magical armors.
Zadmar wrote:4) I'd suggest making the default armour 2, as it makes it easier to balance the numbers, and also allows you to make light armour -2 and heavy armour +2, with clothing at -4 and modern armour +4.

OK, makes sense as well(quit being so sensibe, you're leaving me with nothing to say). However wouldn't this mess up the prices? In the core a set of leather armor(+1, light, covers all but head) costs 100.
Zadmar wrote:5) Rather than a Relic ability and edge, I'd suggest allowing Magical Heirloom to apply to either a weapon or suit of armour.

I kinda wanted this, but I was't sure if you would allow me to md the Magical Heirloom Edge, which you made. I assume this means you're fine with it.
Zadmar wrote:6) It'd be nice to include ablative armour, but I'm not sure how that would be priced. I'll have to update my combat simulator to see how strong it is.

Seems very powerful, to be able to absorb Wounds. but yeah, I agree
Zadmar wrote:7) I'm not entirely sure how I'd handle the AP negation of kevlar, particularly as Savage Armoury weapons only go up to AP 2. In modern settings it basically means "ignore all AP from any firearm other than vehicle-mounted and anti-tank guns" (which are likely to kill you outright anyway). The Barrett and M2 Browning have AP 4, but all the other non-vehicle weapons have AP 2 or lower. So overall I'd be inclined to treat it as a +2 ability.

Hmm, I thought you still had up to 4 AP. Anyway, the Tough modifiers are meant for that, and the +3/+4 versions they are mainly meant for high-tech laser weaponry in sci-fi settings.
Zadmar wrote:8) The idea of value adjustments for tech-level is a great idea, although I wonder if they might be better handled as abilities.

It seemed to me that the system's capability to handle armor from multiple time periods would be more obvious if it was displayed under the Basic Rules. Some people just kind of look over the actual system, only looking better when they actually make a weapon. This might prevent them from noticing the Tech Levels.
Zadmar wrote:9) I wonder if helmets should be included as well, or if they should have a separate mechanic?

the Very Particular modifier causes armor to fit into different categories, including helmet. I thought you might also simply say that the price is changed depending on the amount of armor through percentages, like those displayed in the Savage Armoury.
Zadmar wrote:Here's how I'm considering handling it:

Making Armour

Each suit of armour begins with base Armour 2 (medium armour), protects the torso, costs $250, has 2 points of armour abilities, and is considered three significant items for encumbrance purposes. Additional positive abilities must be countered with an equal value of negative ones, and each ability cannot be taken more than once, nor can an ability be taken if it renders another ability obsolete.

If the armour has any armour modifiers, these are added to the base Armour. For example Enhanced Armor (armour 4) with Kevlar Inserts (+4 armour vs bullets) would have armour 8 vs bullets and armour 4 vs other damage types.

+4 Abilities

* Enhanced Armour: Base Armour 4 (modern or magic only).
* Kevlar Inserts: +4 armour vs bullets (modern only).
* Highly Reflective: +4 armour vs lasers (futuristic only).
* Improved Elemental: +4 armour vs one energy type (magic only).

+3 Abilities

* Mystic Edge: Gain one specific Edge when wearing this armour (magic only).
* Extremely Light: No longer counts as a significant item for encumbrance.

+2 Abilities

* Heavily Reinforced: +2 armour except on a raise.
* Heavy Armour: Base Armour 3.
* Rigid: The armour is classified as Rigid, granting the wearer Hardy (not clothing).
* Kevlar: +2 armour vs bullets (modern only).
* Reflective: +2 armour vs lasers (futuristic only).
* Very Light: Count as one significant item for encumbrance.
* Elemental: +2 armour vs one energy type (magic only).
* Crude: Costs $10 to buy, and the repair cost is quartered.
* Environmental: +2 Vigor bonus to resist all negative environmental effects (futuristic only).
* Impenetrable: Negates up to 4 AP from one damage source (Kevlar, Reflective or Elemental only).

+1 Abilities

* Reinforced: +1 armour except on a raise.
* Sleeves: Armour also protects the arms.
* Leggings: Armour also protects the legs.
* Light: Count as two significant items for encumbrance.
* Cheap: Costs $100 to buy, and the repair cost is halved.
* Concealable: Can be worn inconspicuously under heavy clothing.
* Comfortable: You can sleep in this armour without penalty.
* Fast Don: May don or doff the armour as a normal action.
* Insulated: +2 Vigor bonus to resist one negative environmental effect (heat, cold, etc).

-4 Abilities

* Clothing: Base Armour 0.

-3 Abilities

* Extremely Heavy: Count as six significant items for encumbrance.
* Futuristic Technology: High-tech construction, double the final base Armour value (futuristic only).
* Bulky: -1 Parry.

-2 Abilities

* Light Armour: Base Armour 1.
* Very Heavy: Count as five significant items for encumbrance.
* Masterwork: Costs costs $1000 to buy, and the repair cost is quadrupled.
* Major Hindrance: Wearing this armour gives you a Major Hindrance (magic only).
* Very Awkward: Half Pace, -1 step to running die, standing from prone costs 3".
* Modern Technology: Armour has been built using modern techniques (modern only).

-1 Abilities

* Heavy: Count as four significant items for encumbrance.
* Expensive: Costs $500 to buy, and the repair cost is doubled.
* Awkward: -1 Pace, and getting up from Prone costs 3" instead of 2".
* Minor Hindrance: Wearing this armour gives you a Minor Hindrance (magic only).
* Obvious: Highly conspicuous, noisy and easy to spot, -2 to Stealth rolls.
* Uncomfortable: Roll vs Bumps and Bruises after any scene in which you rolled snake eyes.
* Slow Don: Several minutes to don the armour, dramatic task to doff in emergencies.

It seems to me that the Reflective, Kevlar and Elemental modifiers should be combined into my Resistant, which represents any kind of specific resistance to an attack type, including bullets or lasers. Also you appear to have gotten rid of Soft in the modifiers. Why? it was there to balans out the Light for Clothing, and allow Leather Armor to fit. I like the sneakyness modifiers, although we both obviously name things differently.
Zadmar wrote:Here's how I'd reproduce the medieval armour from the core rules:

* Leather: Cheap (+1), Sleeves (+1), Leggings (+1), Light (+1), Light Armour (-2)
* Chain Hauberk: Sleeves (+1), Leggings (+1)
* Plate Corselet: Heavy Armour (+2)
* Full Plate: Heavy Armour (+2), Sleeves (+1), Leggings (+1), Very Heavy (-2)

When using the rules in the document I sent you:
Leather Armor: Light(+1), Cheap(+1), Soft(-1), Full(+1)
Chainmail: Protective(+2)
Full Plate: Very Protective(+4), Heavy(-1), Expensive(-1)
Zadmar wrote:Not sure how I'd do the modern armour though. My price estimates come out as follows:

* Flak Jacket: Kevlar (+2), Very Light (+2), Cheap (+1), Modern Technology (-2)
* Kevlar vest: Impenetrable (+2), Kevlar (+2), Very Light (+2), Modern Technology (-2)
* Kevlar vest w/inserts: Enhanced Armour (+4), Kevlar Inserts (+4), Impenetrable (+2), Very Light (+2), Really Expensive (-3), Modern Technology (-2)

That's +3, +4 and +7. I guess they could be done like this instead:

* Flak Jacket: Kevlar (+2), Light (+1), Cheap (+1), Modern Technology (-2)
* Kevlar vest: Impenetrable (+2), Kevlar (+2), Modern Technology (-2)
* Kevlar vest w/inserts: Enhanced Armour (+4), Kevlar Inserts (+4), Impenetrable (+2), Really Expensive (-3), Bulky (-3), Modern Technology (-2)

Although as with the weapons, there's no reason why the players couldn't adjust the values - perhaps creating lighter but more expensive versions.

I guess you could even have a kevlar t-shirt:

* Kevlar t-shirt: Extremely Light (+3), Kevlar (+2), Impenetrable (+2), Concealable (+1), Comfortable (+1), Clothing (-4), Modern Technology (-2), Expensive (-1)

Probably not very realistic, but it would gives +0/+2 armour and negate 4 points of AP from guns.

And using my system:
Kevlar vest: Tech II:military(-2), Partial(-1), Very Resistant: bullets(+2), Protective(+2), Light(+1)
Kevlar w/inserts: Tech II:military(-2), Partial(-1), Very Expensive(-2), Very Resistant:bullets(+2), Very Protective(+4), Light(+1)
Zadmar wrote:A vehicle creation system would be cool (if there isn't one already), but probably outside the scope of Savage Armoury. You shouldn't need it to create vehicular weapons though.

I meant that even though I can design weapons for the vehicles players aren't going to be starting with vehicles, are they? And the whole point of the Savage Armoury is to allow balanced custom weapons. So if you had a vehicle generator you could have an Edge that grants your player a vehicle, which could then use custom vehicular weapons.

User avatar
xxlgeeklord
Seasoned
Posts: 249
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:20 pm

#88 Postby xxlgeeklord » Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:48 am

Orvar1111 wrote:For helmets it could simply be a +1 ability, since to attack someone's head is already a called shot at -6 with +4 damage.

Also, the Armor Proficiency edge doesn't seem to have any place in this system.

Hey, almost forgot, welcome to the forums Orvar1111.

Orvar1111
Novice
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2012 7:01 am

#89 Postby Orvar1111 » Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:15 am

Zadmar wrote:It's -6 for the eyes, -4 would be the head. It could just be a +1 ability, but Savage Worlds tends to handle helmets separately from other armour. I think it would be nice to retain that concept.

Oh right, brainfart.
Concerning helmets though, having them separate would be a pretty neat thing. Often helmets can be considered incredibly powerful and symbolic in their own right, and many options in a point-buy system could only be applicable to helmets, while not necessarily apply to armor.

Exemples include headshot chance, penalties to notice rolls, etc. Of course, this could be included as a (helmets only) clause, but having them separate would give them a lot of feeling.
Problems arise though in what makes a good baseline for a helmet, how much it weighs and things like that.

User avatar
Zadmar
Legendary
Posts: 3290
Age: 42
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:59 am
Location: Munich
Contact:

#90 Postby Zadmar » Thu Dec 20, 2012 6:05 pm

xxlgeeklord wrote:Well, Very Cursed(I love the way it sounds) forces a Major Hindrance onto you which is the negative equivalent of an Edge. Thus -3.

The problem is that a Minor Hindrance is usually worth half a Major Hindrance, and you can't really have an ability worth -1½. So in the end I decided to price the Hindrances at -2 and -1, on the basis that they can be discarded with the weapon (unlike regular Hindrances which you're stuck with, and are therefore less prone to min-maxing).

The same is true with armour. You can remove your magical bloodsteel platemail before attempting to seduce the barmaid, but the Ugly Hindrance is more permanent.

While I can certainly understand your argument, I do think that the weapons and armour should have the same pricing.

xxlgeeklord wrote:Makes sense. Then maybe it should be labled with '(magic)'. That way it can only be taken on magical armors.

You can already do that with Mystic Edge though, taking the Block edge to give +1 Parry.

xxlgeeklord wrote:OK, makes sense as well(quit being so sensibe, you're leaving me with nothing to say). However wouldn't this mess up the prices? In the core a set of leather armor(+1, light, covers all but head) costs 100.

It's just a matter of rearranging the abilities. You could reproduce the core leather armour by taking Cheap (+1), Sleeves (+1), Leggings (+1), Light (+1) and Light Armour (-2).

xxlgeeklord wrote:I kinda wanted this, but I was't sure if you would allow me to md the Magical Heirloom Edge, which you made. I assume this means you're fine with it.

I think it would make sense to merge them, replacing the old armour rules in Savage Armoury.

xxlgeeklord wrote:Seems very powerful, to be able to absorb Wounds.

It is, but I think it would be a nice addition, I just need to work out how powerful it is.

xxlgeeklord wrote:It seemed to me that the system's capability to handle armor from multiple time periods would be more obvious if it was displayed under the Basic Rules.

Fair point, perhaps I should look into doing the same for weapons as well. I think it would be best if they worked the same way.

xxlgeeklord wrote:It seems to me that the Reflective, Kevlar and Elemental modifiers should be combined into my Resistant, which represents any kind of specific resistance to an attack type, including bullets or lasers.

Yeah, I did consider that, but I was worried it might be a bit too vague. But perhaps it would be enough to have a section (like many of the weapon abilities) describing how it works, and giving kevlar as an example.

xxlgeeklord wrote:Also you appear to have gotten rid of Soft in the modifiers. Why?

I was trying to make my own list rather than just copying yours outright. I quite like the way the Soft ability reacts to water and fire, although I'm not so keen on having it give AP to axes (because "axe" is a cosmetic trapping rather than a mechanic).

User avatar
xxlgeeklord
Seasoned
Posts: 249
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:20 pm

#91 Postby xxlgeeklord » Sun Dec 23, 2012 9:36 pm

I'm not going to quote you, because it's a lot of work getting all those small quote spaces to work, and it makes my posts huge.

I understand your point on Hindrances, players would be able to take the advantages of Edges whenever needed but negate the Hindrances quite easily. However, contrary to having your weapon sheathed, not wearing your armor is quite a significant disadvantage. If the player takes of the Bloodsteel Plate Mail and there's a sudden bandit attack he's at -3 Toughness for the rest of the scene unless he manages to get ~20 min to put on the armor. A lot harder than sheathing/drawing a weapon.

About the resistances I think you could have a small explanatory area, and that would be a lot less complex than having 3 modifiers that do effectively the same thing.

I believe that absorbing a Wound(seperate from the Deterioration) should be about the worth of a single Soak roll. A single extra Benny is an Edge (Luck/Great Luck), so absorbing a Wound once per session is about a +3 ability by my count. This is taking into account of course that Soak rolls can absorb multiple Wounds or none.

User avatar
Zadmar
Legendary
Posts: 3290
Age: 42
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:59 am
Location: Munich
Contact:

#92 Postby Zadmar » Wed Dec 26, 2012 3:58 pm

xxlgeeklord wrote:I understand your point on Hindrances, players would be able to take the advantages of Edges whenever needed but negate the Hindrances quite easily. However, contrary to having your weapon sheathed, not wearing your armor is quite a significant disadvantage.

The wording in Savage Armoury is actually "Owning this weapon gives you a Minor/Major Hindrance". That's actually a bit vague, but I wanted it to apply even if the weapon was sheathed. Perhaps "Possession" would have been a better word.

xxlgeeklord wrote:I believe that absorbing a Wound(seperate from the Deterioration) should be about the worth of a single Soak roll. A single extra Benny is an Edge (Luck/Great Luck), so absorbing a Wound once per session is about a +3 ability by my count. This is taking into account of course that Soak rolls can absorb multiple Wounds or none.

My combat simulator gave some interesting results - two warriors with d8 Strength/Vigor/Fighting, d6 in everything else, both armed with a longsword.

Alpha has 1 point ablative armour, Beta has 2 point regular armour:

There were 100000 fights. Alpha won 47914 of them, while Beta won 52086.

Alpha has 2 point ablative armour, Beta has 3 point regular armour:

There were 100000 fights. Alpha won 50075 of them, while Beta won 49925.

Alpha has 3 point ablative armour, Beta has 4 point regular armour:

There were 100000 fights. Alpha won 52108 of them, while Beta won 47892.

As you can see, 2 point ablative armour is very closely matched with 3 point regular armour, but ablative armour obvious gets weaker for light armour and stronger for heavier armour. So I'd actually be inclined to make the cost equal to the armour value - i.e., +1 if the armour gives 1 point of protection, +2 if it gives 2 points, and so on.

Obviously that doesn't take into account the fact that the ablative armour is destroyed for your next fight - but on the other hand, you can carry spare armour in your wagon or buy a new set in town, while you can only roll for natural healing once every 5 days. So I think that balances out.

On the subject of helmets...I tried putting together another list of options, but I wasn't happy with the results. I may end up doing something simple for helmets instead.

User avatar
Zadmar
Legendary
Posts: 3290
Age: 42
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:59 am
Location: Munich
Contact:

#93 Postby Zadmar » Wed Jan 09, 2013 2:14 pm

I've uploaded the latest version of Savage Armoury, it includes the following changes:

* Rules for designing your own armour and helmets (there's a "thank you" to xxlgeeklord on page 2, as it was his proposal that finally convinced me it was worth including a point-buy system for armour). The old armour system has been moved to the optional rules section.

* The introduction has been expanded to 2 pages, and includes various different ways in which Savage Armoury can be used. Previously these suggestions were scattered throughout the document. Some new ones have also been added, including edge creation, modern and futuristic gear, and an alternative Armour power for Supers.

* Changed Low Powered from 2d6-1 to 2d4+1. This is slightly better mechanically, but I mainly changed it for psychological reasons; people seem to avoid weapons that have a fixed damage penalty.

* Area-Effect has been redesigned to better fit the weapon creation system - rather than costing +0 and removing the raise die, it's now +4 while No Raise Die is -4. Avoidable and Grenade have been added as additional abilities.

* Clarified how the Carried, Hindrance and Returning weapon abilities work, as these seemed to cause a lot of confusion.

* Updated the equipment list - the hand-crossbow one point off and has been reworked, the shortbow and longbow have been slightly adjusted, the modern weapons now include their extra 2 weapon abilities, and the armour section has been completely redone to use the new armour and helmet creation rules.

* Cleaned up the presentation and trimmed the fat. The document is now 21 pages including the cover and table of contents.

User avatar
CitizenKeen
Seasoned
Posts: 123
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 1:30 pm

#94 Postby CitizenKeen » Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:38 pm

Zadmar wrote:In the race creation rules, Hardy is a +4 ability. In Savage Armoury I treated it as the equivalent of +3, balanced against the fact that Bludgeoning weapons are particularly effective against Rigid armour. However I've since realised that Hardy is pretty weak, even before factoring in Bludgeoning weapons. So I wouldn't price Rigid as any higher than +2.


Is it? SWDEE lists Hardy as a +3 racial advantage (p. 22). So you're already right?

User avatar
Zadmar
Legendary
Posts: 3290
Age: 42
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:59 am
Location: Munich
Contact:

#95 Postby Zadmar » Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:48 pm

CitizenKeen wrote:Is it? SWDEE lists Hardy as a +3 racial advantage (p. 22). So you're already right?

Oops, right you are! I must have seen it in the top section and mentally interpretted that as +4 (because Savage Armoury starts at +4).

I've made it a +2 ability in the latest version though.

User avatar
CitizenKeen
Seasoned
Posts: 123
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 1:30 pm

#96 Postby CitizenKeen » Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:31 pm

Never version looks fantastic. Thank you kindly for all your hard work.

Question: The Armoury doesn't explicitly indicate what happens when you go over your limit on significant items.

If I have a Strength of d4, I can carry 2 significant items. Do I take a –1 to all Strength & Agility related rolls for every significant item beyond 2 (so a –2 penalty at 4 significant items and a –3 at 5), or for every two significant items, more akin to the basic rules (so a –1 at 4 significant items and a –2 at 6)?

Thanks!

User avatar
Zadmar
Legendary
Posts: 3290
Age: 42
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:59 am
Location: Munich
Contact:

#97 Postby Zadmar » Thu Jan 10, 2013 4:20 am

CitizenKeen wrote:Question: The Armoury doesn't explicitly indicate what happens when you go over your limit on significant items.

If I have a Strength of d4, I can carry 2 significant items. Do I take a –1 to all Strength & Agility related rolls for every significant item beyond 2 (so a –2 penalty at 4 significant items and a –3 at 5), or for every two significant items, more akin to the basic rules (so a –1 at 4 significant items and a –2 at 6)?

The latter. The encumbrance rules work the same, it's just that weights are tracked to the nearest 10 pounds rather than the nearest 1 pound. So for example this sentence from the Encumbrance section on page 49 of SWD:

"A hero with a d8 Strength, for example, has a Load Limit of 40 pounds. He can carry 41-80 pounds at a –1 penalty to his Strength, Agility, and related skill rolls. He could also carry 81-120 pounds at –2, or 121-160 pounds at –3."

Would become:

"A hero with a d8 Strength, for example, has a Load Limit of 4 significant items. He can carry 5-8 significant items at a –1 penalty to his Strength, Agility, and related skill rolls. He could also carry 9-12 significant items at –2, or 13-16 significant items at –3."

It's just a more abstract variant of the core rules really. I find it's easier to track, as my players usually try to avoid encumbrance penalties, so they can only carry a few significant items.

Orvar1111
Novice
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2012 7:01 am

#98 Postby Orvar1111 » Tue Jan 15, 2013 8:09 am

If I wanted to use the "simplified" armor rules (I just prefer it to separate armor pieces as GM), would it be unbalancing if I allowed the Armour Proficiency edge to also remove some of the parry penalties? Or should I balance it out by lowering it so that the edge instead removes TWO points of significant weight, and two points of parry penalty?

Love your work, by the way. Helps a lot when making magical items and such for my campaigns.

User avatar
Zadmar
Legendary
Posts: 3290
Age: 42
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:59 am
Location: Munich
Contact:

#99 Postby Zadmar » Tue Jan 15, 2013 8:45 am

Orvar1111 wrote:If I wanted to use the "simplified" armor rules (I just prefer it to separate armor pieces as GM), would it be unbalancing if I allowed the Armour Proficiency edge to also remove some of the parry penalties? Or should I balance it out by lowering it so that the edge instead removes TWO points of significant weight, and two points of parry penalty?

The simplified armour rules mention that "The Armour Proficiency Edge allows you to ignore 1 point of penalty, and can now be taken up to 4 times". That refers to the Parry penalty. Note also that "Armour is treated as X significant items ... when the armour is carried, not when it is worn." Under the simplified armour rules you ignore the Weight when it is worn (encumbrance is instead reflected by the Parry penalty) - the only exception being reinforced armour and headgear. It's really just a bonus to Toughness at the expense of Parry.

This was based on the observation (after a lot of tests with my combat simulator) that -1 Parry is roughly on-par with +1½ Toughness. As I couldn't have +1½ armour per weight category, I drew inspiration from the reinforced armour in the Fantasy Companion and made it +2, +1 on a raise.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, the (simplified) armour "is balanced against no armour, so you can play a rogue with no armour, or one with leather armour, and they should be equally viable ... If you really want "wearing armour" to be the standard in your setting, then just reduce the armour penalties by 1. It'll probably mean no more barbarians in loincloths, or wizards wearing only robes, though."

Orvar1111 wrote:Love your work, by the way. Helps a lot when making magical items and such for my campaigns.

Thanks, glad you've found it useful!

Orvar1111
Novice
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2012 7:01 am

#100 Postby Orvar1111 » Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:10 am

Zadmar wrote:The simplified armour rules mention that "The Armour Proficiency Edge allows you to ignore 1 point of penalty, and can now be taken up to 4 times". That refers to the Parry penalty. Note also that "Armour is treated as X significant items ... when the armour is carried, not when it is worn." Under the simplified armour rules you ignore the Weight when it is worn (encumbrance is instead reflected by the Parry penalty) - the only exception being reinforced armour and headgear. It's really just a bonus to Toughness at the expense of Parry.

This was based on the observation (after a lot of tests with my combat simulator) that -1 Parry is roughly on-par with +1½ Toughness. As I couldn't have +1½ armour per weight category, I drew inspiration from the reinforced armour in the Fantasy Companion and made it +2, +1 on a raise.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, the (simplified) armour "is balanced against no armour, so you can play a rogue with no armour, or one with leather armour, and they should be equally viable ... If you really want "wearing armour" to be the standard in your setting, then just reduce the armour penalties by 1. It'll probably mean no more barbarians in loincloths, or wizards wearing only robes, though."

Oh wow, I must've read that part pretty lazily. Thanks for the clarification!


Return to “SW General Chat & Game Stories”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests