Custom Setting Rules

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Kendermage
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Re: Custom Setting Rules

#21 Postby Kendermage » Wed Nov 02, 2016 4:00 am

Seize Initiative
The player may spend a Benny to have his character seize the initiave to interrupt the actions of another character.
Purpose: To give characters a chance to do something cool, not covered in the rules such as a burster blocking a railgun blast with his flame bolt to keep it from shredding a companion.
This ability mimics one of the functions of drawing a Joker namely being able to do an action at any point during the combat round. The character does not get a +2 to his actions though.

Emulate Skill/Edge
The player can spend a Benny to gain a one off use of a Skill or Edge he does not possess. A use of such a skill is at d4 without a -2 penalty and a use of an edge means the character must meet any prerequisites for it's use.
Purpose: This setting rule is only usable once per session, which means you have to be careful when you use it, and it has come in handy in several games. Spellcasters can use it for a one use of a power they don't have as long as they meet the rank requirements. It is good for those edges that don't come into play like the Mighty Blow or Power Surge edges which only work when a Joker is drawn. Our half-orc character used it last game to get Mighty Blow when she drew a Joker and because of buffs was able to kneecap a UAR-1 Enforcer.
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Re: Custom Setting Rules

#22 Postby SeeleyOne » Wed Nov 02, 2016 6:53 pm

Ndreare wrote:A house rule I have been using across all Savage Worlds games is replacing the strength table with one that doubles strength for every two steps. This makes every step a 41% increase.
I have also replaced the size table with every step doubles mass. So a size 3 creature with humanoid build would be about twice human size and 8 times human mass.


I do that with the Size table, too.

Can you show me what you mean with the strength? Make a table, maybe? I am not seeing +41% twice equaling +100%.
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Re: Custom Setting Rules

#23 Postby Freemage » Wed Nov 02, 2016 8:47 pm

SeeleyOne wrote:
Ndreare wrote:A house rule I have been using across all Savage Worlds games is replacing the strength table with one that doubles strength for every two steps. This makes every step a 41% increase.
I have also replaced the size table with every step doubles mass. So a size 3 creature with humanoid build would be about twice human size and 8 times human mass.


I do that with the Size table, too.

Can you show me what you mean with the strength? Make a table, maybe? I am not seeing +41% twice equaling +100%.


If line 1 is 1.00, line 2 would be (1 x 1.40 =) 1.4, then iine 3 would be (1.4 x 1.4 =) 1.96

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Re: Custom Setting Rules

#24 Postby Ndreare » Wed Nov 02, 2016 10:43 pm

Freemage wrote:
SeeleyOne wrote:
Ndreare wrote:A house rule I have been using across all Savage Worlds games is replacing the strength table with one that doubles strength for every two steps. This makes every step a 41% increase.
I have also replaced the size table with every step doubles mass. So a size 3 creature with humanoid build would be about twice human size and 8 times human mass.


I do that with the Size table, too.

Can you show me what you mean with the strength? Make a table, maybe? I am not seeing +41% twice equaling +100%.


If line 1 is 1.00, line 2 would be (1 x 1.40 =) 1.4, then iine 3 would be (1.4 x 1.4 =) 1.96


Exactly, it is a basic log of 2 with d6 being 30 lbs. Brawny simply adds 60% to lift. Remember a character can max out at 5x their unencumbered lift.
D4 = 15 lbs
D6 = 30 lbs
D8 = 60 lbs
D10 = 120 lbs
D12 = 240 lbs
D12+1 = 340 lbs
D12+2 = 480 lbs
D12+3 = 675 lbs
D12+4 = 1,000 lbs (this is an arbitrary bump of +40 lbs as we use a chart)
D12+5 = 1,410 lbs
D12+6 = 2,000 lbs
D12+7 = 2,825 lbs
D12+8 = 4,000 lbs
D12+9 = 3 tons
D12+10 = 4 tons

This creates a slight bump makes the strength more predictable and the character with d10 or d12 strength is actually stronger than the player in real life.
However with the super strength table from SP2 being brought into Savage Rifts we may decide to just use that instead.

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Re: Custom Setting Rules

#25 Postby DoctorBoson » Thu Nov 03, 2016 12:47 am

Ndreare wrote:Exactly, it is a basic log of 2 with d6 being 30 lbs. Brawny simply adds 60% to lift. Remember a character can max out at 5x their unencumbered lift.
D4 = 15 lbs
D6 = 30 lbs
D8 = 60 lbs
D10 = 120 lbs
D12 = 240 lbs
D12+1 = 340 lbs
D12+2 = 480 lbs
D12+3 = 675 lbs
D12+4 = 1,000 lbs (this is an arbitrary bump of +40 lbs as we use a chart)
D12+5 = 1,410 lbs
D12+6 = 2,000 lbs
D12+7 = 2,825 lbs
D12+8 = 4,000 lbs
D12+9 = 3 tons
D12+10 = 4 tons

This creates a slight bump makes the strength more predictable and the character with d10 or d12 strength is actually stronger than the player in real life.
However with the super strength table from SP2 being brought into Savage Rifts we may decide to just use that instead.

Notable, RAW characters max out encumbrance at 4× their Load Limit (so d4 has a Load Limit of 20 and a Max Capacity of 120; d10 has a Load Limit of 50 and a Max Capacity of 200, etc).

It's also worth noting what a Load Limit implies. Load Limit means that you can maneuver and be active carrying up to that weight as if you were naked, or at least just wearing shorts, a T-Shirt and some good shoes, for an extended period of time. When I was in high school, my backpack probably weighed in the ballpark of 20–30 pounds, possibly more. While I could walk some distance with that stuff without getting tired, I most certainly couldn't fight, sneak around, do flips, or go rock climbing with that stuff on my back, along with a ton of adventuring gear and weaponry (exceeding the Load Limit with a –1 or –2). People that can are typically Brawny.

As far as Max Capacity goes, yeah sometimes that can seem a little bit low, but I don't think I could lift a 200 lb man above my head. Most people can't; generally speaking, the average human can only lift around 4/5ths of their body weight—for the average 160 lb man, that's about 128 lbs. For a 180 lb man, that's 144 pounds. For people that can lift notably above that—and that doesn't include rolling or pushing or dragging things, or a fireman's carry (that distributes a person's weight over your body and makes them seem notably lighter than they are, effectively halving their weight for the purposes of Encumbrance), I mean deadlifting more than their own body mass in dead weight—either they're Brawny or their Strength is really high, or both!

So if any of your players are complaining that their d10 or d12 Strength character—with a max lift capacity of 200 or 240 lbs—is weaker than they are, have them go take a well-exercised 6'4" man and hoist them from their armpits above their head, since that's what their character can do, and that's not even with Brawny—a d10 Brawny character can lift 320 pounds, and a d12/Brawny guy can go up to 384.

With the system you're using, where you're multiplying their Load Limit by 5 and doubling every die type, any jo blo with a d12 Strength can pull off feats like this, which should—RAW—be reserved for someone with a d12+2 and Brawny, which can be achieved by a normal Human through the use of Legendary Edges (apt, given that this guy is considered the strongest man in the world).

I won't be one to say "your fun is wrong," but if your players are complaining that their characters are weaker than they are, either your player needs to look at the Brawny Edge, reexamine how strong they really think they are, or bite the bullet and realize that they're just freakishly strong and their character can't be that buff out of the gate without either Brawny or devoting Advances to raising their Strength. To be frank, I'm willing to guess that most players aren't falling into that last category.

I do recommend using the Strength charts in the SPC, though, they're pretty consistent and keep things in the realm of possibility as far as players are concerned.
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Re: Custom Setting Rules

#26 Postby Ndreare » Thu Nov 03, 2016 7:25 am

The x5 in my post was an academy and should have read x4.
*********************

Apparently your book says something other than what mine says.

According to page 49 of the PDF a character with d8 strength can lift 160 and stumble around with it for a few steps. That is not an overhead lift or clean and jerk that describes a dead lift.

This not only states it is a maximum lift but multiply by 1.6 for brawny and you are still looking at only 256 lbs for the lift it and stumble around a few steps (-4 to everything)
The charger with d12 strength and brawny combined would end up with this maximum deadlift if 396 lbs.
My player who is definitely nowhere close to human maximum in real life was deadlifting in the 400s in his prime before adult life took away his ability to work out daily.
So when I give him his half orc great weapon fighter with a d12 strength and he sees it is according to the rules not able to lift what he could her mentions it and we run the numbers. If you watch strong man competitions you can see amazing feats off strength, those are the feats the player expected his character to be able to do.


PS: The 1000 lb deadlift you shared could not be done in Savage Worlds even with the d12+2 brawny character by the book. As he would be limited to 448 lbs

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Re: Custom Setting Rules

#27 Postby Jounichi » Thu Nov 03, 2016 11:28 am

I think some of those, for lack of a better term, sour grapes comes from conflating two unrelated things. Correct me if I'm wrong, but deadlifting involved working specific muscle groups in a specific way to accomplish a specific task. The die types presented are all abstractions for general fitness. Deadlifting might very well be represented by a mechanic not yet introduced because the setting wasn't designed to accommodate it.

Out of curiosity, what's the Size of the character? It's a common enough house rule to double carrying capacity with each Size up. Furthermore, depending on the setting Brawny comes with a Size increase.
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Re: Custom Setting Rules

#28 Postby Ndreare » Thu Nov 03, 2016 12:17 pm

The setting that triggered Riordan's "What The" moment was high fantasy with the Born A Hero setting rule.
His character used the Great Weapon Fighter template modified and with a Half Orc for race.
It was the first time we cared enough to look up Encumbrance and where surprised. We both work in industrial inspection and frequently have to carry about 80-90 pounds of gear to and through operating units and up towers. Then we looked online and found out the average US Army soldier carries 60 lbs of gear.
Or conclusion was the game was not representing realistic load limits and was failing at representing human maximums and legendary potential for lifts.

As for size affecting load limits that is good idea because otherwise the amazing feats of some riding and pack animals would be even more impossible.

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Re: Custom Setting Rules

#29 Postby DoctorBoson » Thu Nov 03, 2016 2:30 pm

Ndreare wrote:Apparently your book says something other than what mine says.

According to page 49 of the PDF a character with d8 strength can lift 160 and stumble around with it for a few steps. That is not an overhead lift or clean and jerk that describes a dead lift.

This not only states it is a maximum lift but multiply by 1.6 for brawny and you are still looking at only 256 lbs for the lift it and stumble around a few steps (-4 to everything)
The charger with d12 strength and brawny combined would end up with this maximum deadlift if 396 lbs.
My player who is definitely nowhere close to human maximum in real life was deadlifting in the 400s in his prime before adult life took away his ability to work out daily.
So when I give him his half orc great weapon fighter with a d12 strength and he sees it is according to the rules not able to lift what he could her mentions it and we run the numbers. If you watch strong man competitions you can see amazing feats off strength, those are the feats the player expected his character to be able to do.

Oh, um... my apologies to your player, it sounds like he was a Strength d12 with Brawny in his prime. Dude sounds like a beast. That said, d12 is hardly the human maximum—it's just the highest an average person reaches (since d12+1 and d12+2 take Legendary Edges, magic items, or Super Powers), and if we're talking picking something up for a few seconds, holding up a door or falling debris, etc, I'd personally allow a Strength roll to attempt it (which is likely what your beastly player was doing way back when).

PS: The 1000 lb deadlift you shared could not be done in Savage Worlds even with the d12+2 brawny character by the book. As he would be limited to 448 lbs

My apologies, that comes from getting used to the SPC2 super strength table, where d12+2 has a Max Capacity of 1000 lbs, 1600 with Brawny—which happens to align very well with the actual human maximum. 'tis the reason I use it (d12+1 gives you a 100 lbs Load Limit and a 400 lb max, which probably fits more what your player was expecting... as a half-orc that gets an additional die type in Strength, he should be able to get that d12+1 simply as an Advance).

We both work in industrial inspection and frequently have to carry about 80-90 pounds of gear to and through operating units and up towers. Then we looked online and found out the average US Army soldier carries 60 lbs of gear.

So far as this is concerned, it's worth noting that characters don't have a problem carrying that much gear (unless you've got a d4 in Strength); even a d6 character could lug around 80 pounds of gear for quite a long time if they had to. Where Load Limits come in is if the character is doing something active, like fighting or climbing a rock wall or doing flips, or is otherwise dramatically important. I'll assume you guys aren't doing that at full load, but my previous assumption got tossed in my face so what do I know? :wink:

With the soldier, while they're carrying around a huge load of equipment, I think it's safe to say for most that they're not at a d6 Strength flat—generally I assume trained soldiers are at a d8 or have Brawny, or both. For the non-Brawny soldier, I think it's safe to assume that they aren't at 100% peak effectiveness when climbing or fighting with all of their gear, including rucksack and canteens and body armor and gun and ammo, so a –1 seems reasonable enough. Brawny d8 soldiers don't even have that if they just have their standard gear.

For a quick tally of a Savage soldier's gear, there's the Kevlar w/ceramics (12 lbs), helmet (3lbs) with night vision (4 lbs), the rifle itself (8 lbs), the sidearm (presuming a 1911, that's 4 lbs), magazines for both (we'll say 8 lbs for the lot—I've personally house ruled lighter ammo, a 5.56 mag doesn't weigh 4.5 lbs), couple grenades (4lbs RAW, but many settings use put grenades at a pound each, so 2lbs), an IFAK (1lb), radio (2lb), multitool (1lb), canteens (2lbs), and a rucksack (2lbs + whatever is inside), bringing our hypothetical soldier's gear up to 49 pounds with nothing but the basics. Even with a d6 Strength, a –1 for having all that strapped to your body isn't entirely unreasonable.

To be clear, I'm not trying to be contrary, I just think that it's totally okay to be over-encumbered with gear in Savage Worlds; the penalties are there, but it's relatively minor for just a –1 and I don't think that fully-combat suited soldiers are as effective at skill checks as soldiers without all of that gear. What they are is more protected and prepared, which is sort of the point and actually decreasing that weight is something research is being poured into because of how exhausting it is to lug around that much gear. As far as feats of Strength, that's what your Strength die and Wild die are there for. :D
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Re: Custom Setting Rules

#30 Postby Ndreare » Thu Nov 03, 2016 5:44 pm

DoctorBoson wrote:
Ndreare wrote:We both work in industrial inspection and frequently have to carry about 80-90 pounds of gear to and through operating units and up towers. Then we looked online and found out the average US Army soldier carries 60 lbs of gear.

So far as this is concerned, it's worth noting that characters don't have a problem carrying that much gear (unless you've got a d4 in Strength); even a d6 character could lug around 80 pounds of gear for quite a long time if they had to. Where Load Limits come in is if the character is doing something active, like fighting or climbing a rock wall or doing flips, or is otherwise dramatically important. I'll assume you guys aren't doing that at full load, but my previous assumption got tossed in my face so what do I know? :wink:

No, you are right. it is definitely not something I could have done in combat.


As for making strength rolls to lift more or exceed your Max I never saw that in the rules. I like the idea though. Is that a common house rule or is it in the book?

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Re: Custom Setting Rules

#31 Postby Deskepticon » Thu Nov 03, 2016 6:54 pm

Ndreare wrote:As for making strength rolls to lift more or exceed your Max I never saw that in the rules. I like the idea though. Is that a common house rule or is it in the book?


It's not official. The book just allows the character to carry up to -3 Encumbrance and still walk. Or up to -4 with a lift-and-stumble. I suppose a Strength check (with the -4 penalty for encumbrance) can be made to lift more than that. Maybe in moments of high adrenaline (like that 16 year old girl that lifted a 2 ton truck to free her father after the jack slipped and pinned him).

Also, there's a rule at my table that Encumbrance penalties affect Pace as well. And when the party moves only as fast as its slowest member, players need to plan accordingly.

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Re: Custom Setting Rules

#32 Postby ValhallaGH » Thu Nov 03, 2016 7:05 pm

Strength rolls are used to do things that require being strong, just like Agility, Smarts, Spirit, and Vigor rolls can be called for to do things appropriate to them. An example is found on page 70, as the example of a Trait test. "For example, if a character’s Strength is a d6, he rolls a six-sided die. On a 4 or better, he’s successful."

Which lifting tasks are a matter of Encumbrance and which are a matter for Strength rolls is up the the game master (one of the virtually endless situational rulings a GM is expected to make).
Lifting a heavy pack and walking cross country is certainly a matter of Encumbrance.
Lifting a heavy block and moving it a few feet is probably a matter of Encumbrance.
Lifting a fallen car off of a trapped relative or infant so they can get out from under it is probably a Strength roll.
Lifting a heavy iron portcullis to charge into the courtyard is probably not possible with the normal range of Strength. If the lift was allowed then it is almost certainly a Strength roll.
Pushing an opponent is certainly a Strength roll (see the Push maneuver).
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Re: Custom Setting Rules

#33 Postby Deskepticon » Thu Nov 03, 2016 8:01 pm

And Encumbrance can affect more than just Strength and Agility. Making a Vigor check to maintain a forced march would almost certainly be affected by the weight you are carrying.

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Re: Custom Setting Rules

#34 Postby SeeleyOne » Thu Nov 03, 2016 9:00 pm

Personally I like strength as is just fine, but I do increase it by a larger size, as well as the weight capacity increases by a larger size. I have seen Brawny come up quite a bit in my group, and there is also an edge that we use from Beasts and Barbarians that halves the effective encumbrance of armor.

As for doing cool feats of strength I could see there being an Edge that makes them easier without actually changing your attribute, but that does seem kind of odd. But then again, maybe someone is really good at certain things but not so strong overall? Maybe you miss "leg day" too often?

One player in particular has griped quite a bit about the encumbrance values of things, but that is a topic of its own. I just tell him to get Brawny. :)
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Re: Custom Setting Rules

#35 Postby Ndreare » Thu Nov 03, 2016 9:15 pm

Deskepticon wrote:
Ndreare wrote:As for making strength rolls to lift more or exceed your Max I never saw that in the rules. I like the idea though. Is that a common house rule or is it in the book?


It's not official. The book just allows the character to carry up to -3 Encumbrance and still walk. Or up to -4 with a lift-and-stumble. I suppose a Strength check (with the -4 penalty for encumbrance) can be made to lift more than that. Maybe in moments of high adrenaline (like that 16 year old girl that lifted a 2 ton truck to free her father after the jack slipped and pinned him).

Also, there's a rule at my table that Encumbrance penalties affect Pace as well. And when the party moves only as fast as its slowest member, players need to plan accordingly.


From the way DoctorBosson was responding to my message I assumed there was a rule I was missing.
Knowing it was just GM Fiat makes my experience much more reasonable to me.

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Re: Custom Setting Rules

#36 Postby Ndreare » Thu Nov 03, 2016 9:21 pm

We have in multiple campaigns completely removed Rank Requirements. We call it Born A Hero, but we extend it throughout all of play.

We have one game we are starting soon that the GM is allowing a Benny to be spent and it framers grants d4 with any unknown skill or access top any single edge (not background edges and still must have prerequisites) for 1 turn. But you have to make up an excuse for why/how you have it.
Your characters may then spend you next advance to buy the skill or edge without having to justify the expenditure.

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Re: Custom Setting Rules

#37 Postby galu » Fri Nov 04, 2016 2:27 pm

Ndreare wrote:The setting that triggered Riordan's "What The" moment was high fantasy with the Born A Hero setting rule.
His character used the Great Weapon Fighter template modified and with a Half Orc for race.
It was the first time we cared enough to look up Encumbrance and where surprised. We both work in industrial inspection and frequently have to carry about 80-90 pounds of gear to and through operating units and up towers. Then we looked online and found out the average US Army soldier carries 60 lbs of gear.
Or conclusion was the game was not representing realistic load limits and was failing at representing human maximums and legendary potential for lifts.

As for size affecting load limits that is good idea because otherwise the amazing feats of some riding and pack animals would be even more impossible.



Actual example:
When I was in the army, we did marches with full load. Since I was the biggest in the squad, I had to carry around the :mad: RPK, two spare mags, a side arm + mags. Add the grenades, bayonet, shovel, gas mask, food, water, small tent, helmet, (cigarette :D). This was around 50kg, without a bulletproof vest.
It was impossible to fight encumbered like this, the first thing everybody did when we were ordered to do something else then walk, was to throw away the luggage.

The minimum amount, which was called storm-equipment (thinking that the rest of your stuff is on trucks) is about 10kg plus weapon. (gun, bayonet, helmet, spare mags, shovel, some food, gun cleaning kit, spare socks/underwear, 1l water) But if you take the minimum, you are not a full soldier (eg. miss a tent, blanket, a second set of clothes)


So, in my opinion it is realistic that a trained soldier (d8 strength) is heavily encumbered under 60 kg (~130 lbs), but not encumbered at all with 15 kg (~30-35 lbs).
The example in Deluxe, for d8 strength is:
not encumbered: 40 lbs
-1 encumbrance: 80 lbs
-2 encumbrance: 120 lbs
-3 encumbrance: 160 lbs

That is very close to what I think is realistic (If I care for realism, which is not always the case). The soldier can fight without encumbrance with minimum equipment (30-40 lbs), and usually has to throw down the useful, but heavy (+80 lbs) stuff before going into battle.

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Re: Custom Setting Rules

#38 Postby SeeleyOne » Fri Nov 04, 2016 2:57 pm

That is what my group assumes, too. Toss the pack and non-essentials once the fight starts. Sometimes it might be the only cover that you have, too. :)
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Re: Custom Setting Rules

#39 Postby Deskepticon » Fri Nov 04, 2016 3:54 pm

SeeleyOne wrote:That is what my group assumes, too. Toss the pack and non-essentials once the fight starts. Sometimes it might be the only cover that you have, too. :)

Oooo, very interesting using a pile of gear as cover. Randomly determine which equipment gets shot-up?

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Re: Custom Setting Rules

#40 Postby galu » Sat Nov 05, 2016 3:24 am

Deskepticon wrote:
SeeleyOne wrote:Oooo, very interesting using a pile of gear as cover. Randomly determine which equipment gets shot-up?


Random equipment malfunction is part of the fun. IRL once I found that my pottage ration made it's way into my gas mask :D


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