Custom Setting Rules

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Virgobrown72
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Re: Custom Setting Rules

#41 Postby Virgobrown72 » Tue Nov 15, 2016 11:37 pm

Natures

I borrowed Natures from White Wolf games, which are basically a one word description of the character's outlook and demeanor. (Protector, Explorer, Judge, etc.). I have the players play these just like Hindrances, good for a Bennie once per game. It makes for interesting developments when combined white Hindrances.
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Re: Custom Setting Rules

#42 Postby Wibbs » Thu Nov 17, 2016 2:24 am

galu wrote:1. "roleplay hindrances"
Mostly for the hindrances which don't have a mechanical effect, but should be roleplayed by the player. Stuff like greedy, womanizer, gambler, etc. When GMing, I usually offer a benny when the PC intentionally makes her life harder with the hindrance.
Example: let's say the party is holed up in a cabin in the woods, with werewolfs outside. The PC with the "Habit: smokes" hindrance can declare that his smokes are still in the car. If he goes out to get the pack, I will award a benny. (he used his hindrance to frame an interestnig scene)
Example 2: in sword&sorcery the "evil temptress" is usually lost on players (everyone knows the lady is a witch/hag/etc), but if there is a barbarian with womanizer hindrance, who goes in for a kiss, I award a benny.

Unless I'm missing something, isn't that how Hindrances are supposed to work anyway?

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Re: Custom Setting Rules

#43 Postby Deskepticon » Thu Nov 17, 2016 4:19 am

Wibbs wrote:Unless I'm missing something, isn't that how Hindrances are supposed to work anyway?

I always thought so.
On a related note, if the player doesn't take it upon themselves to evoke a Hindrance at an obviously appropriate moment I sometimes do it for them... without the Benny. :twisted:

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Re: Custom Setting Rules

#44 Postby Wibbs » Thu Nov 17, 2016 12:54 pm

I'm not quite that mean, but I am always happy to offer up a bennie and suggest how a particular Hindrance might come into play at the time

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Re: Custom Setting Rules

#45 Postby Freemage » Thu Nov 17, 2016 1:09 pm

Wibbs wrote:I'm not quite that mean, but I am always happy to offer up a bennie and suggest how a particular Hindrance might come into play at the time


The issue I have with this approach is that turns some Hindrances (but not all) into pseudo-Boons.

One Arm produces a set, mechanical drawback that the player cannot work around without actually finding a way to do so (like having an ally doing their reloading, or somesuch). They can't just declare, "Well, I reload my gun now because I really need to."

But for the roleplay Hindrances, you're letting them 'opt out' at will--which means they'll only be likely to take the downside if they feel like the Bennie is worth it, which means that effectively, "Arrogant" and "Bloodthirsty" become optional Bennie-factories with little to no practical downside.

At the same time, it feels tyrannical to simply take over a PC and force them to do the thing (leave the party to fight mooks while they deal with the Big Bad, or kill the prisoner), the way Deskepticon described.

Thus my stated preference upthread. Bennies represent a turning of fate and fortune. When you fight against your inner nature, you're struggling against fate itself--so you lose a bennie, and I gain one. (In theory, this would mean I should also do the same if I really need an NPC to violate their Hindrance for plot reasons--I would have to pay one of my Bennies to the table, either to the most affected PC, or to the one with the lowest current total stash if the former method seems moot.)

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Re: Custom Setting Rules

#46 Postby galu » Thu Nov 17, 2016 1:26 pm

Freemage wrote:Thus my stated preference upthread. Bennies represent a turning of fate and fortune. When you fight against your inner nature, you're struggling against fate itself--so you lose a bennie, and I gain one. (In theory, this would mean I should also do the same if I really need an NPC to violate their Hindrance for plot reasons--I would have to pay one of my Bennies to the table, either to the most affected PC, or to the one with the lowest current total stash if the former method seems moot.)



Alternatively, you could rule that you only give a benny for roleplaying hindrances if the PC exposes himself to some nasty effect.

Example:
James Bond gets a benny for "womanizer" once he visits the apartment of the seducer who is obviously a soviet spy. (he doesn't get a benny when he beds an obvously not dangerous lady)

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Re: Custom Setting Rules

#47 Postby Freemage » Thu Nov 17, 2016 2:21 pm

galu wrote:
Freemage wrote:Thus my stated preference upthread. Bennies represent a turning of fate and fortune. When you fight against your inner nature, you're struggling against fate itself--so you lose a bennie, and I gain one. (In theory, this would mean I should also do the same if I really need an NPC to violate their Hindrance for plot reasons--I would have to pay one of my Bennies to the table, either to the most affected PC, or to the one with the lowest current total stash if the former method seems moot.)



Alternatively, you could rule that you only give a benny for roleplaying hindrances if the PC exposes himself to some nasty effect.

Example:
James Bond gets a benny for "womanizer" once he visits the apartment of the seducer who is obviously a soviet spy. (he doesn't get a benny when he beds an obvously not dangerous lady)

But that still doesn't make it a Hindrance in the way that, say, Outsider or One Arm is. It's totally up to the player whether or not they want the Bennie--at that point, whether or not there's a downside, it's still more of a boon than a drawback. Hindrances should force players to make hard choices, not easy ones.

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Re: Custom Setting Rules

#48 Postby Deskepticon » Thu Nov 17, 2016 2:22 pm

Freemage wrote:
Wibbs wrote:I'm not quite that mean, but I am always happy to offer up a bennie and suggest how a particular Hindrance might come into play at the time


The issue I have with this approach is that turns some Hindrances (but not all) into pseudo-Boons.
... ...
But for the roleplay Hindrances, you're letting them 'opt out' at will--which means they'll only be likely to take the downside if they feel like the Bennie is worth it, which means that effectively, "Arrogant" and "Bloodthirsty" become optional Bennie-factories with little to no practical downside.

Precisely.

At the same time, it feels tyrannical to simply take over a PC and force them to do the thing (leave the party to fight mooks while they deal with the Big Bad, or kill the prisoner), the way Deskepticon described.

I didn't mean to make it sound like I "force" them into an action. I simply suggest they should act in accordance to their build. To a pc with with Curious who ignores the guy saying, "psst, com'ere!" I simply remind them they have a strong urge to hear the guy out. If they still ignore him, fine. If they stay and listen that's fine too, but they don't get the reward for it.
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Re: Custom Setting Rules

#49 Postby Freemage » Thu Nov 17, 2016 2:28 pm

Deskepticon wrote:
Freemage wrote:
Wibbs wrote:I'm not quite that mean, but I am always happy to offer up a bennie and suggest how a particular Hindrance might come into play at the time


The issue I have with this approach is that turns some Hindrances (but not all) into pseudo-Boons.
... ...
But for the roleplay Hindrances, you're letting them 'opt out' at will--which means they'll only be likely to take the downside if they feel like the Bennie is worth it, which means that effectively, "Arrogant" and "Bloodthirsty" become optional Bennie-factories with little to no practical downside.

Precisely.

At the same time, it feels tyrannical to simply take over a PC and force them to do the thing (leave the party to fight mooks while they deal with the Big Bad, or kill the prisoner), the way Deskepticon described.

I didn't mean to make it sound like I "force" them into an action. I simply suggest they should act in accordance to their build. To a pc with with Curious who ignores the guy saying, "psst, com'ere!" I simply remind them they have a strong urge to hear the guy out. If they still ignore him, fine. If they stay and listen that's fine too, but they don't get the reward for it.


But at that point, they've got no reason (other than a desire to remain true to the character--I'm not including awesome players in this discussion 8) ) to listen to the guy. They gain no benefit from doing so (you're not giving them the Bennie now), and there's no downside to walking away. If they NEVER take choose to follow the dodgy guy or peek in the sealed package they're delivering, then they got an Edge at the beginning of the game for free, because their Hindrance has no impact.

With my system, they can choose to accept the cost of walking away, or they can choose to take a benefit for playing the Hindrance (and suffering the consequences of talking to strange men in dark alleys).

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Re: Custom Setting Rules

#50 Postby Deskepticon » Thu Nov 17, 2016 2:51 pm

Freemage wrote:But at that point, they've got no reason (other than a desire to remain true to the character--I'm not including awesome players in this discussion 8) ) to listen to the guy. They gain no benefit from doing so (you're not giving them the Bennie now), and there's no downside to walking away. If they NEVER take choose to follow the dodgy guy or peek in the sealed package they're delivering, then they got an Edge at the beginning of the game for free, because their Hindrance has no impact.

Yes. But they also never get to earn any Bennies from playing them. The idea is to nudge them back into character. I suppose I could do nothing and let them play how they want, but that usually means they hoard Bennies in antipation for some big fight that may or may not come and never take risks when it is dramatically appropriate. That brings the fun down for everyone. The guy that's good at xyz doesn't do it because of metagaming.

With my system, they can choose to accept the cost of walking away, or they can choose to take a benefit for playing the Hindrance (and suffering the consequences of talking to strange men in dark alleys).

I don't see how this is much different. It's basically saying, "play your Hindrance or lose a Benny." In some cases it's more of a "force" than simply reminding a player of their character's flaws.

Don't get me wrong, I'm fine with the rule. But there's a bit of a pot and kettle situation here, no?

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Re: Custom Setting Rules

#51 Postby galu » Thu Nov 17, 2016 2:54 pm

Freemage wrote:
But that still doesn't make it a Hindrance in the way that, say, Outsider or One Arm is. It's totally up to the player whether or not they want the Bennie--at that point, whether or not there's a downside, it's still more of a boon than a drawback. Hindrances should force players to make hard choices, not easy ones.




I understand your point, but I view it from an other angle: if it makes the game more interesting, I am not really bothered by a freebie benny. Eg. if Bond beds the soviet spy, it will have interesting consequenses. Or if a "habit: chain smoker" PC goes outside to get his cigarettes from his car, while a werewolf lurks outside? Instant win for the game night :)
This is very similar to how you could "recharge" your willpower with playing on your demeanor or nature in VtM. "Behave how it is written on your character sheet, take this willpower recharge as a present" (IIRC it was demeanor, but not sure)


Two other things:
- you could award a benny even for the "mechanical" hindrances too (eg. when the one eyed gets a -2 on his notice roll, gets a benny), so that it equals out
- in my experience the players usually* take a hindrance when they don't mind if that exact defect comes into play often. They usually play on the hindrance anyway, because it makes the character more fun in the long run. Like the vampire: it's weaknesses (sunlight, coffin, being a guest) makes it a more memorable enemy then it's strength (reflexes, turn into bat/fog, etc.)




*not always, because I always see obese taken as a free +1 toughness :(

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Re: Custom Setting Rules

#52 Postby ValhallaGH » Thu Nov 17, 2016 3:09 pm

Guys, this is a great discussion, but it's outside the scope of this thread. Please move it.

Thank you. :)
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Re: Custom Setting Rules

#53 Postby Freemage » Thu Nov 17, 2016 4:35 pm


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Re: Custom Setting Rules

#54 Postby Freemage » Mon Nov 21, 2016 1:32 pm

And, having completed the occasionally bristly discussion of my concept, it now has some of the rough edges filed off:

Raise the Stakes: In a situation where a roleplay Hindrance should come into play, but the player is reluctant to do so, I will put up a Benny (from the pool, not from mine) and ask which one of us gets it. If the player plays the Hindrance, he gets it; if he does not, it goes to the GM pool. In situations of conflicting Hindrances, the player only has to play out one Hindrance to claim the Benny; I only get it if they opt to not play out either Hindrance for some reason.

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Re: Custom Setting Rules

#55 Postby Freemage » Fri Nov 25, 2016 12:13 am

Another new one--this one to make it a bit easier to keep a beloved (or just vital) Extra from dying horribly due to a single bad die roll:

The Golden Moment:
On the same or immediately subsequent round to an Extra being Incapacitated by injury, an ally (or, even, an enemy, in cases where you need someone to question after the battle) can choose to provide aid with Healing. This plays out in one of two ways, depending on whether the Healing is power-based or mundane:
Someone using the Healing Power on an Extra gives them a +1 on the Aftermath roll, with an additional +1 for every Raise.
If the healer is using mundane Healing, then they must continue to provide aid for 10 minutes (as per the normal Healing Skill use for Wild Cards). They can still act, but if they do, then any actions they take suffer the Multi-Action Penalty, and the final Healing roll does as well. Outside of that caveat, they use the same results as magical healers.

(Ex: Allister is a PC who has, at some point during the campaign, begun a romance with Elizabeth, an Extra. The nefarious Duke Hackney von Cliche kidnaps Elizabeth, and during the rescue attempt, Elizabeth is shot and Incapacitated. Allister immediately runs to her side and starts performing first aid, sheltering her body with his own, as his allies continue to battle the Duke and his minions. At one point, Allister uses one hand to pull out a pistol and fire off a shot at the Baron. The shot is at -2 because of the MAP. As the smoke clears, Allister rolls Healing at -2 to try to aid Elizabeth's Vigor roll; he gets a net 6, giving her a +1 to the roll.)

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Re: Custom Setting Rules

#56 Postby Deskepticon » Fri Nov 25, 2016 12:35 am

Freemage wrote:...As the smoke clears, Allister rolls Healing at -2 to try to aid Elizabeth's Vigor roll; he gets a net 6, giving her a +1 to the roll.)

Why wouldn't he just use the roll to stablize her? :?

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Re: Custom Setting Rules

#57 Postby Freemage » Fri Nov 25, 2016 12:47 am

Deskepticon wrote:
Freemage wrote:...As the smoke clears, Allister rolls Healing at -2 to try to aid Elizabeth's Vigor roll; he gets a net 6, giving her a +1 to the roll.)

Why wouldn't he just use the roll to stablize her? :?


She's an Extra--they don't Bleed Out (and thus, stabilizing is irrelevant). They just roll Aftermath--Vigor roll, see if they are Dead, Injured or Recovered; if Injured, roll Vigor again to see if they are Incapacitated or Walking Wounded. If Incapacitated, and they are moved, they must roll Vigor again or start to Bleed Out--in that circumstance, they can be stabilized with a Healing roll at -2 (but even then, they can no longer be safely moved without killing them. But that's after they initial Aftermath roll, which is, by RAW, outside any sort of Healing attempt.

Interestingly, per RAW, you could help them out with Boost Trait applied to Vigor, if it was still running as the combat ended. But actual medical training is worthless for helping Extras survive initially.

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Re: Custom Setting Rules

#58 Postby Deskepticon » Fri Nov 25, 2016 1:02 am

Yes, Aftermath is the simplified version of Bleeding Out, but there's nothing preventing Healing from being used on extras as well.

Devil's advocate: your rule can be simplified by saying "Healing can be used on extras."

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Re: Custom Setting Rules

#59 Postby Freemage » Fri Nov 25, 2016 1:12 am

Deskepticon wrote:Yes, Aftermath is the simplified version of Bleeding Out, but there's nothing preventing Healing from being used on extras as well.

Devil's advocate: your rule can be simplified by saying "Healing can be used on extras."

You still have to define what happens on a success (or a raise, for that matter). Extras don't have "one wound"--they don't have wounds at all. So the standard Healing rules don't apply--the only thing the skill/spell do is remove wounds.

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Re: Custom Setting Rules

#60 Postby Deskepticon » Fri Nov 25, 2016 1:46 am

They don't have Wound levels, true, but how does that abstain them from being healed?

The answer you're looking for is under Healing, Incapacitated Patients: "If the victim is Incap the healer must first make a Healing roll to remove that state." So a healing roll on an Incap extra brings them back up to fighting status; a raise does nothing. As seen under Natural Healing: "Extras lose their Incap status with a success..."

And so Val doesn't yell at us again....

Massive Damage
A single hit that deals 3 or more wounds beyond a character's Incap state kills them outright. Do not roll Vigor, do not collect 200 dollars, go straight to Dead. You may attempt to Soak as usual.


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