Non-combat Edges/roles in SW

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Deskepticon
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Re: Non-combat Edges/roles in SW

#21 Postby Deskepticon » Thu Mar 02, 2017 1:23 pm

Freemage wrote:
Deskepticon wrote:
Ilina_Young wrote:...most spellcasters don't need more than like 6 powers to fill thier niche.

Yeah, and a good reason for why SW core needs more Power Edges to help differentiate casters.


I'm curious what sorts of differentiation would be needed that couldn't be accomplished just as well by Trappings.


Things like quick casting, and other ways to tweak existing spells.

ValhallaGH wrote:I think your casters need more character to differentiate them. :lol:

Heheh! Probably.

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Re: Non-combat Edges/roles in SW

#22 Postby Brickulos » Thu Mar 02, 2017 1:39 pm

Deskepticon wrote:
Freemage wrote:
Deskepticon wrote:Yeah, and a good reason for why SW core needs more Power Edges to help differentiate casters.


I'm curious what sorts of differentiation would be needed that couldn't be accomplished just as well by Trappings.


Things like quick casting, and other ways to tweak existing spells.

ValhallaGH wrote:I think your casters need more character to differentiate them. :lol:

Heheh! Probably.


Shaintar a bunch of awesome options for AB magic and some stuff for other ABs as well.

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Ilina_Young
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Re: Non-combat Edges/roles in SW

#23 Postby Ilina_Young » Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:06 pm

Brickulos wrote:
Freemage wrote:
I'm curious what sorts of differentiation would be needed that couldn't be accomplished just as well by Trappings.


Things like quick casting, and other ways to tweak existing spells.


you don't need new options for magic. there are already a lot of power and trapping options. even if you start with bolt, boost trait and healing like 90% of the power gamed arcane spellcasters out there. trappings can make your spells very different. even if you took blast, succor, and quickness. your trappings can make you very different. or if you want mechanical differentiation, add a power that isn't part of the big 6 combat powers. you don't even need restrictive lists, taking deflection or taking elemental manipulation will make you different.


Brickulos wrote:
Deskepticon wrote:
ValhallaGH wrote:I think your casters need more character to differentiate them. :lol:

Heheh! Probably.


Shaintar a bunch of awesome options for AB magic and some stuff for other ABs as well.


truth is, Shaintar isn't any bit like Savage Worlds and so heavily modifies the system it can't be considered the same system due to being heavily modified.

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Re: Non-combat Edges/roles in SW

#24 Postby galu » Fri Mar 03, 2017 12:58 am

Ilina_Young wrote:you don't need new options for magic. there are already a lot of power and trapping options. even if you start with bolt, boost trait and healing like 90% of the power gamed arcane spellcasters out there. trappings can make your spells very different. even if you took blast, succor, and quickness. your trappings can make you very different. or if you want mechanical differentiation, add a power that isn't part of the big 6 combat powers. you don't even need restrictive lists, taking deflection or taking elemental manipulation will make you different.



Brickulos has a point though: if you want to make your spellcaster unique, it is your task as a player to do so.
It is possible to do it, but my experience is that for most new players, getting the hang of trappings is the hardest part of SW. In quite a few cases this even meant that some players were not willing to play spellcasters in SW.


Also, some customization options are still great. I regularly use the spell bargain method from Deadlands (get the best poker hand vs. the needs of the spirit), and the ritual casting + and the whole spell list from Solomon Kane (similar to "no power points", but you get your casting penalty decreased for every turn you spend casting. Also spell duration is spellcaster rank based, such as hour/rank).

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Re: Non-combat Edges/roles in SW

#25 Postby Deskepticon » Fri Mar 03, 2017 12:47 pm

Ilina_Young wrote:you don't need new options for magic. there are already a lot of power and trapping options. even if you start with bolt, boost trait and healing like 90% of the power gamed arcane spellcasters out there. trappings can make your spells very different. even if you took blast, succor, and quickness. your trappings can make you very different. or if you want mechanical differentiation, add a power that isn't part of the big 6 combat powers. you don't even need restrictive lists, taking deflection or taking elemental manipulation will make you different.


I wasn't talking about using Trappings to build different types of casters. My original comment was in response to you saying that many themes don't need more than 6 powers to become fully realised. So adding a small handful of Edges can help build on the theme, without conflating it with "alternate versions" of powers.

Just to spitball:
Quick Casting - double PP to cast as free action.
Contingent Power - cast power ahead of time, but only activates under certain conditions.
Duel Casting - choose two powers. They can be cast in the same round without MAP.

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Re: Non-combat Edges/roles in SW

#26 Postby Brickulos » Fri Mar 03, 2017 9:43 pm

Ilina_Young wrote:Brickulos wrote:
Deskepticon wrote:
ValhallaGH wrote:
I think your casters need more character to differentiate them.

Heheh! Probably.


Shaintar a bunch of awesome options for AB magic and some stuff for other ABs as well.


truth is, Shaintar isn't any bit like Savage Worlds and so heavily modifies the system it can't be considered the same system due to being heavily modified.


I have to disagree most strongly with that assessment. Shaintar adds a lot to the system, but it is most certainly still Savage Worlds.

Deskepticon wrote:
Ilina_Young wrote:you don't need new options for magic. there are already a lot of power and trapping options. even if you start with bolt, boost trait and healing like 90% of the power gamed arcane spellcasters out there. trappings can make your spells very different. even if you took blast, succor, and quickness. your trappings can make you very different. or if you want mechanical differentiation, add a power that isn't part of the big 6 combat powers. you don't even need restrictive lists, taking deflection or taking elemental manipulation will make you different.


I wasn't talking about using Trappings to build different types of casters. My original comment was in response to you saying that many themes don't need more than 6 powers to become fully realised. So adding a small handful of Edges can help build on the theme, without conflating it with "alternate versions" of powers.

Just to spitball:
Quick Casting - double PP to cast as free action.
Contingent Power - cast power ahead of time, but only activates under certain conditions.
Duel Casting - choose two powers. They can be cast in the same round without MAP.


Shaintar has an Edge called Applications that allows you to modify a known power, make it an area effect, add AP, or cast two specific powers at once, among other things. Other Edges grant the raise effect with a basic success for one power or gives a +2.

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Re: Non-combat Edges/roles in SW

#27 Postby Ilina_Young » Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:47 pm

the Reason i don't consider Shaintar or Savage Rifts to be Savage Worlds is because they tacked so many things onto the system that literally slow the game down that they no longer feel like the Fast Furious Fun system they were built to utilize. i call them setting specific Savage Worlds Derivative Systems. they derive a lot of mechanics from Savage Worlds, but they tack on so many new Mechanics at once that it doesn't feel like it is anywhere near being the same system. i can say the same about most setting conversions made by fans. things tend to get overcomplicated.

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Re: Non-combat Edges/roles in SW

#28 Postby Brickulos » Sat Mar 04, 2017 2:00 pm

Ilina_Young wrote:the Reason i don't consider Shaintar or Savage Rifts to be Savage Worlds is because they tacked so many things onto the system that literally slow the game down that they no longer feel like the Fast Furious Fun system they were built to utilize. i call them setting specific Savage Worlds Derivative Systems. they derive a lot of mechanics from Savage Worlds, but they tack on so many new Mechanics at once that it doesn't feel like it is anywhere near being the same system. i can say the same about most setting conversions made by fans. things tend to get overcomplicated.


Okay. Not sure it's salient to the ongoing discussion though.

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Re: Non-combat Edges/roles in SW

#29 Postby Ilina_Young » Sat Mar 04, 2017 2:53 pm

Brickulos wrote:
Ilina_Young wrote:the Reason i don't consider Shaintar or Savage Rifts to be Savage Worlds is because they tacked so many things onto the system that literally slow the game down that they no longer feel like the Fast Furious Fun system they were built to utilize. i call them setting specific Savage Worlds Derivative Systems. they derive a lot of mechanics from Savage Worlds, but they tack on so many new Mechanics at once that it doesn't feel like it is anywhere near being the same system. i can say the same about most setting conversions made by fans. things tend to get overcomplicated.


Okay. Not sure it's salient to the ongoing discussion though.


you caught me there. it was a response to somebody bringing up Shaintar and how i was going to say that Trappings fix everything about Savage Worlds and coming up with Trappings is something we do all the time. every time i take an Elf with the Small Hindrance, the Attractive Edge and an Edge Spent on Wings, i describe the character as some kind of Nymph or Faerie instead of an Elf. applying trappings. i usually swap the Elf's Racial All Thumbs Minor Hindrance for the Hedonistic Minor Hindrance.

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Re: Non-combat Edges/roles in SW

#30 Postby Brickulos » Sat Mar 04, 2017 3:00 pm

Ilina_Young wrote:
Brickulos wrote:
Ilina_Young wrote:the Reason i don't consider Shaintar or Savage Rifts to be Savage Worlds is because they tacked so many things onto the system that literally slow the game down that they no longer feel like the Fast Furious Fun system they were built to utilize. i call them setting specific Savage Worlds Derivative Systems. they derive a lot of mechanics from Savage Worlds, but they tack on so many new Mechanics at once that it doesn't feel like it is anywhere near being the same system. i can say the same about most setting conversions made by fans. things tend to get overcomplicated.


Okay. Not sure it's salient to the ongoing discussion though.


you caught me there. it was a response to somebody bringing up Shaintar and how i was going to say that Trappings fix everything about Savage Worlds and coming up with Trappings is something we do all the time. every time i take an Elf with the Small Hindrance, the Attractive Edge and an Edge Spent on Wings, i describe the character as some kind of Nymph or Faerie instead of an Elf. applying trappings.


The Edges I was referencing from Shaintar are ones that Trappings don't easily cover. That's why they exist the first place. They're expansions of existing powers, or allow a spellcaster to specialize with a specific power.

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Re: Non-combat Edges/roles in SW

#31 Postby Ilina_Young » Sat Mar 04, 2017 6:12 pm

Brickulos wrote:
Ilina_Young wrote:
Brickulos wrote:
Okay. Not sure it's salient to the ongoing discussion though.


you caught me there. it was a response to somebody bringing up Shaintar and how i was going to say that Trappings fix everything about Savage Worlds and coming up with Trappings is something we do all the time. every time i take an Elf with the Small Hindrance, the Attractive Edge and an Edge Spent on Wings, i describe the character as some kind of Nymph or Faerie instead of an Elf. applying trappings.


The Edges I was referencing from Shaintar are ones that Trappings don't easily cover. That's why they exist the first place. They're expansions of existing powers, or allow a spellcaster to specialize with a specific power.


having only heard complaints about the book from popular SW Podcasts. i was unaware that stuff like that was featured in the books. i pretty much exclusively hear about it trying to be a d20 retroclone disguised as a Savage Worlds setting because whoever wrote it, was accused of being a d20 convert, and as a d20 convert, i tend to make a lot of mistakes that came from remembering what happened in d20. but i know that not every d20 convert truly embraces d20 and i am way too familiar with what happens when you try too hard to convert d20 to SW. i made the mistake a few times, d20 includes tons of filler fights that serve almost no purpose besides being experience fodder and money restocks for the players, pretty much, wandering monsters might be bags of experience points, sources of income. and bags of ammunition with combat numbers attached. slaughtering a goblin village was a way to gain cheap weapons to sell as a means to purchase healing wands.

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Re: Non-combat Edges/roles in SW

#32 Postby Brickulos » Sat Mar 04, 2017 10:25 pm

Ilina_Young wrote:
Brickulos wrote:
Ilina_Young wrote:
you caught me there. it was a response to somebody bringing up Shaintar and how i was going to say that Trappings fix everything about Savage Worlds and coming up with Trappings is something we do all the time. every time i take an Elf with the Small Hindrance, the Attractive Edge and an Edge Spent on Wings, i describe the character as some kind of Nymph or Faerie instead of an Elf. applying trappings.


The Edges I was referencing from Shaintar are ones that Trappings don't easily cover. That's why they exist the first place. They're expansions of existing powers, or allow a spellcaster to specialize with a specific power.


having only heard complaints about the book from popular SW Podcasts. i was unaware that stuff like that was featured in the books. i pretty much exclusively hear about it trying to be a d20 retroclone disguised as a Savage Worlds setting because whoever wrote it, was accused of being a d20 convert, and as a d20 convert, i tend to make a lot of mistakes that came from remembering what happened in d20. but i know that not every d20 convert truly embraces d20 and i am way too familiar with what happens when you try too hard to convert d20 to SW. i made the mistake a few times, d20 includes tons of filler fights that serve almost no purpose besides being experience fodder and money restocks for the players, pretty much, wandering monsters might be bags of experience points, sources of income. and bags of ammunition with combat numbers attached. slaughtering a goblin village was a way to gain cheap weapons to sell as a means to purchase healing wands.


Shaintar is quality material. It does somewhat hearken to classic fantasy games, but it's one of my favorite settings, and still feels very much like a Savage Worlds game.

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Re: Non-combat Edges/roles in SW

#33 Postby JamesG » Mon Mar 06, 2017 3:45 pm

Ilina_Young wrote:having only heard complaints about the book from popular SW Podcasts. i was unaware that stuff like that was featured in the books.


It's probably not a great idea to disparage a setting when the sum of the experience you have with it is hearing what others have said. Rather than actually reading the material yourself, or better yet, having some actual play experience with it. And it is especially not a great idea to come across as so definitive in your assessment when you lack such personal experience.

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Re: Non-combat Edges/roles in SW

#34 Postby Brickulos » Mon Mar 06, 2017 4:06 pm

JamesG wrote:
Ilina_Young wrote:having only heard complaints about the book from popular SW Podcasts. i was unaware that stuff like that was featured in the books.


It's probably not a great idea to disparage a setting when the sum of the experience you have with it is hearing what others have said. Rather than actually reading the material yourself, or better yet, having some actual play experience with it. And it is especially not a great idea to come across as so definitive in your assessment when you lack such personal experience.


Yep


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