Off-Hand Attacks (and some ideas concerning them)

Just got your book, can't find a copy, have a cool adventure idea or story? Chat about it here.

Moderators: PEG Jodi, The Moderators

Message
Author
Deskepticon
Veteran
Posts: 823
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2015 10:31 pm

Re: Off-Hand Attacks (and some ideas concerning them)

#21 Postby Deskepticon » Thu Apr 13, 2017 2:52 pm

Corwin wrote:You could always just rule that a martial artist, wanting to make a series of punches and/or kicks, is taking the Rapid Attack combat option.

Right. That would be three attacks, all at -4, and puts you at -2 Parry until your next turn. But as I stated up above, Rapid Attack doesn't allow you to move between attacks (all targets must be immediately adjacent to you when you execute the action), and Rapid Attack is a single action, meaning each attack must share a Wild Die.

As Jounichi pointed out, you can couple it with Wild Attack to bring the penalties down to -2 and increase damage for each attack by +2, but Parry would also drop by 4 (-2 from RA and -2 from WA).

Under my proposed change to IMA, each attack would be a separate action, meaning each one gets a Wild Die, and it would allow you to move between attacks for additional tactical advantage.

User avatar
Jounichi
Legendary
Posts: 2756
Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:51 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD, USA

Re: Off-Hand Attacks (and some ideas concerning them)

#22 Postby Jounichi » Thu Apr 13, 2017 5:59 pm

My ears were burning.

You're also casually ignoring that a Rapid Attack's -4 penalty isn't that different than the MAP from performing three separate actions. There's also the issue of using a kick to attack throwing off one's balance or otherwise leaving themself more open to an attack. At the very least I'd impose a penalty to Pace, which limits the number of potential targets they can reach. And then there's the possibility of being struck back when withdrawing to hit someone else.

Maybe you should just look for ways to strengthen Rapid Attack.
"Rush not in to fights. Long is the war. Only by surviving it, will you prevail." -Yoda
"Wise man once say, 'forgiveness is divine, but never pay full price for late pizza.'" -Michelangelo

Deskepticon
Veteran
Posts: 823
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2015 10:31 pm

Re: Off-Hand Attacks (and some ideas concerning them)

#23 Postby Deskepticon » Thu Apr 13, 2017 9:37 pm

Jounichi wrote:You're also casually ignoring that a Rapid Attack's -4 penalty isn't that different than the MAP from performing three separate actions.

Am I?
I think you misunderstood; I was only being specific when I mentioned the -4 from Rapid Attack. My OP clearly states the penalties involved, so I am well aware they are similar.

Which would you prefer: three attacks at -4 with one Wild Die, or three attacks at -4 with each having their own Wild Die?

Jounichi wrote:There's also the issue of using a kick to attack throwing off one's balance or otherwise leaving themself more open to an attack. At the very least I'd impose a penalty to Pace, which limits the number of potential targets they can reach.

That's a fine rule for your table, but I don't see it as an inherit part of the attack. A skilled martial artist should be able to maintain their balance while kicking.

Jounichi wrote:And then there's the possibility of being struck back when withdrawing to hit someone else.

Well, anyone disengaging from a foe is going to suffer an attack. Presumably a player wouldn't do so unless the first foe was Incapacitated or they had an Edge allowing them to do so safely.
Honestly, you're just grasping at straws here.

Jounichi wrote:Maybe you should just look for ways to strengthen Rapid Attack.

Maybe, if you can provide a more compelling argument for why you think my suggestion is not a good one.

User avatar
Jounichi
Legendary
Posts: 2756
Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:51 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD, USA

Re: Off-Hand Attacks (and some ideas concerning them)

#24 Postby Jounichi » Fri Apr 14, 2017 9:02 am

Deskepticon wrote:Maybe, if you can provide a more compelling argument for why you think my suggestion is not a good one.

You still don't get it, do you?

There are, at present, three melee attack options available to players under the core rules. The default is the single Fighting roll. This can be performed with one or two-handed weapons and can be bolstered with Edges like Frenzy and Sweep. Second is the two weapon fighting method with a weapon in each hand. The off-hand can't do anything special like Frenzy or Sweep, but there are other mechanical benefits like with Florentine. It can also be combined with shields (for shield bash push maneuvers) and with Frenzy or Sweep for the main hand. Lastly is Rapid Attack, which is a way to roll three skill dice at once at the cost of not performing any other actions.

There are already two different means of rolling three Fighting dice (with one or two wild dice split between them) on a single action. With the available options for boosting damage, the action economy for martial artists doesn't need a possible fourth attack. Martial arts kind of did back when Deadlands Reloaded first came out, but not anymore. Back then it didn't boost damage and there was no damage field power, so four attacks at just Strength damage was pretty useful. Rapid Attack also wasn't a real thing back then; at least not for melee attacks.

Zadmar's Full Body Fighter isn't bad, but in light of how strong martial arts have become, I question its place now. It's incredibly powerful, not only granting a third attack but also the benefit of the Ambidextrous Edge. And I think his assertion that it's different than Ambidextrous is disingenuous since there's little liklihood that a player dedicated to martial arts would pick up a weapon, let alone two.

You've already admitted it's a niche idea. If the goal is to get in a third attack, those options already exist. Some of them require some Edge investments but are actually quite potent. So why the obsession with a literal kick instead of just boosting another mechanic and abstract the kick as a trapping?
"Rush not in to fights. Long is the war. Only by surviving it, will you prevail." -Yoda

"Wise man once say, 'forgiveness is divine, but never pay full price for late pizza.'" -Michelangelo

Deskepticon
Veteran
Posts: 823
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2015 10:31 pm

Re: Off-Hand Attacks (and some ideas concerning them)

#25 Postby Deskepticon » Fri Apr 14, 2017 8:39 pm

Jounichi wrote:You still don't get it, do you?


No, I suppose I don't get it since all I'm advocating for is being allowed a third unarmed attack with no OHP. Which is mechanically similar to the Additional Action racial ability. Where's your outrage at the Kalians? Or the quickness power for that matter?

Only one of your most recent critiques (which was actually aimed at Zadmar's edge) has merit, and that's that adding an extra attack with no OHP is fairly powerful. I agree! By comparison, Additional Action is worth about an Edge and a half. However, it isn't limited to just unarmed attacks, and the removal of the MAP is arguably better than eliminating the OHP, since the MAP would have applied to all actions, whereas the OHP applies to just the one.

The takeaway here is that an extra attack action already has precedent within the official ruleset. You can make the argument that tacking it onto an existing Edge (Improved Martial Artist) is too powerful and it should be a separate Edge, then we can have a conversation. You see, I'm not opposed to change if I see a legitimate reason for one.

Jounichi wrote:You've already admitted it's a niche idea. If the goal is to get in a third attack, those options already exist. Some of them require some Edge investments but are actually quite potent.

Yeah, it's niche. Whereas Rapid Attack is common (literally anyone can use it).
Since I already pointed out the differences between RA and adding a third, separate attack action I don't think I need to repeat them. But it is those differences that make it a niche ability, not a common one.

Jounichi wrote:So why the obsession with a literal kick instead of just boosting another mechanic and abstract the kick as a trapping?

My god, man! Twice I've corrected you that it's not a sole focus on kicking but "non-hand" unarmed attacks in general. So whose the one obsessed with kicks here?
Besides, suppose I proposed an Edge for Rapid Attack that would eliminate the Parry penalty and reduce all the attack penalties to -2. What should the Requirements be? Maybe Veteran Rank? A d10 in Fighting? Perhaps 4 different Edges? All the above?
You tell me.

User avatar
ZenFox42
Veteran
Posts: 584
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2014 3:25 am

Re: Off-Hand Attacks (and some ideas concerning them)

#26 Postby ZenFox42 » Sat Apr 15, 2017 7:45 am

Guys! Please simmer down before Clint shuts this thread down! :o

Deskepticon's original motivation for all this was whether Ambidextrous could be applied to a "non-hand" attack. He then made a leap to Improved Martial Artist to provide them with one.

However, Clint has made it very clear over too many posts to reference that "attacks" in standard SW always *must* involve the hands.

So, we're in the realm of house-rules already.

But, I'm going to argue that giving only Martial Artists a non-hand attack is *too* limiting - why shouldn't other characters be allowed a non-hand attack?

By RAW, let's look at how many Edges it takes to get 3 attacks with no penalties : Improved Frenzy, Frenzy, Two-Fisted, Ambidextrous. So, 4 Edges.

Now, it could be argued that the "off-hand" attack could be Trapped as a kick, or head-butt, or whatever, but it sounds like Deskepticon wants something more solid than a Trapping.

So, how can we build a character that gets 3 attacks with no penalties, without using Frenzy (which only affects Fighting attacks, which means the hands)?

Start with Two-Fisted, and Ambidextrous. That's two attacks with no penalties.

Now, add a modified version of Zadmar's Edge :
Full-Body Fighter
Requirements: Novice, Agility d8+
You may perform one extra unarmed Fighting attack action each round which doesn't use your hands, such as a kick or headbutt. This extra attack still incurs the standard multi-action penalty, and doesn't benefit from Two-Fisted, nor it is affected by what your hands are doing or what you're holding. However, if you have Ambidextrous, it applies to this attack as well (since it is an "off-hand" attack), and Martial Artist adds a d4 to the attack's damage as usual.

Then add another Edge :
Improved Full-Body Fighter
Requirements : Seasoned, Full-Body Fighter
When making a non-hand Fighting attack, ignore the multi-action penalty for this attack as well.

Now, with 4 Edges, any character can have 3 Fighting attacks (two hands, one non-hand) with no penalties. So any character can (to quote Zadmar) "now play the action-movie hero who kicks one foe while blasting another with his shotgun or dual pistols".
Savage Summaries-RAW, with added info from Clint:Combat Actions,Cover,Healing,Using Powers,Grappling,Chases
Also:Persuasion,Better Bosses,Better Combat Rating
And:historical tech levels,generic sci-fi tech levels

User avatar
Snate56
Legendary
Posts: 5359
Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2006 5:57 pm
Location: Monroe, Washington

Re: Off-Hand Attacks (and some ideas concerning them)

#27 Postby Snate56 » Sat Apr 15, 2017 7:14 pm

If I were presented with this I would be tempted to assign an additional "off-hand" penalty to the kick as using your leg would be even more clumsy than using your off hand. I might compensate slightly by giving them a +2 to damage as the leg is heavier and stronger.
Someone with martial arts would not be subject to this additional penalty as it is assumed they have been trained in kicking.

Ambidextrous wouldn't normally apply unless you were a soccer player (or football, in English :D )



SteveN
"Politicians and diapers must be changed often, and for the same reasons."
>Mark Twain<

User avatar
ZenFox42
Veteran
Posts: 584
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2014 3:25 am

Re: Off-Hand Attacks (and some ideas concerning them)

#28 Postby ZenFox42 » Sun Apr 16, 2017 7:26 am

I specifically allowed Ambidextrous to affect Full Body Fighter because I was shooting for 3 attacks with no penalties using 4 Edges, same as Frenzy+Imp.Frenzy+Two-Fisted+Ambidextrous, and without *needing* Martial Artist to achieve it.
Savage Summaries-RAW, with added info from Clint:Combat Actions,Cover,Healing,Using Powers,Grappling,Chases

Also:Persuasion,Better Bosses,Better Combat Rating

And:historical tech levels,generic sci-fi tech levels

Freemage
Veteran
Posts: 946
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 10:18 pm

Re: Off-Hand Attacks (and some ideas concerning them)

#29 Postby Freemage » Sun Apr 16, 2017 4:47 pm

ZenFox42 wrote:I specifically allowed Ambidextrous to affect Full Body Fighter because I was shooting for 3 attacks with no penalties using 4 Edges, same as Frenzy+Imp.Frenzy+Two-Fisted+Ambidextrous, and without *needing* Martial Artist to achieve it.


I made a similar proposal and ValhallaGH pointed out that by stacking with the Feats you mentioned, you could end up with with 5 attacks per round, with all the bare-handed attacks doing sick amounts of damage due to the use of Martial Arts Master on top of it all.

User avatar
ZenFox42
Veteran
Posts: 584
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2014 3:25 am

Re: Off-Hand Attacks (and some ideas concerning them)

#30 Postby ZenFox42 » Mon Apr 17, 2017 8:14 am

(I think you meant 4 attacks, Valhalla never said anything about 5 attacks...)

Then the same thing applies to Deskepticon's original suggestion - add in Frenzy+Improved Frenzy, and you've got 4 attacks, with only a -2 MAP to each of them.

Now, Valhalla was focusing on the damage, but since he was hypothesizing a (*very*) Legendary character, it's not hard to imagine that his Fighting would be d12+2, so he'd still have an 88% chance of each attack succeeding. Add in all the Edges Valhalla mentioned, and a PC using Deskepticon's approach is doing 4 attacks with just as much damage.

OTOH, how likely is it for a PC to get to the extreme that Valhalla described (6+ Legendary advances)? Just because it's *possible*, doesn't mean it's *probable*. Also note that my Edges don't require Martial Artist at all, so a PC who wants an extra attack might not end up doing d12+d6+16 damage with it.

And, as you pointed out, 6 (or 7, in your case) Edges to get 4 attacks with no penalties sounds about right, since you need 2 Edges for 2 attacks, and 4 Edges for 3 attacks, without penalty (by RAW).
Savage Summaries-RAW, with added info from Clint:Combat Actions,Cover,Healing,Using Powers,Grappling,Chases

Also:Persuasion,Better Bosses,Better Combat Rating

And:historical tech levels,generic sci-fi tech levels

ValhallaGH
Legendary
Posts: 8293
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:15 pm

Re: Off-Hand Attacks (and some ideas concerning them)

#31 Postby ValhallaGH » Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:54 am

If a character is a monk / pugilist / world martial arts champion in a campaign that doesn't end at the first Legendary advance (because life begins at Legendary) then doing "charging heavy lancer" damage with unarmed attacks is not only possible but likely. Str+d6+12 (a build that requires 5 Legendary advances, 3 regular advances, and d8 in Agility and Strength, for a minimum of 120 experience) is powerful enough that it eclipses most other offensive paths for raw damage; few things deal an average of 21.3 to 23.3 damage, and none of those deal a minimum of 14.

The real concerns with granting additional attacks are two fold.
First, it gives that single character more spotlight time, usually at the expense of other player characters. That reduces the fun of multiple players, with little or no increase in the fun of the murder-bot, for a net loss of fun. Since fun is the goal of games, this is a bad result.
Second, it slows down game play by adding more resolutions to each combat turn of that single character. This reduces the speed, intensity, and enjoyment of the combat because everyone can tune out for seven minutes while the one player resolves his four attacks. It's usually a bad thing when a house rule removes the Fast, Furious, Fun from Savage Worlds.

If you play games where a player is regularly using quickness then you'll see both of these effects highlighted in your campaigns.
It's worth noting that the SPC version of quickness (extra actions) is less powerful; the comic book style super power is tamer than the core rules power. There are good reasons for that.
"Got a problem? I've got the solution: Rocket Launcher."
"Not against a Servitor."
"... We're all gonna die."

Freemage
Veteran
Posts: 946
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 10:18 pm

Re: Off-Hand Attacks (and some ideas concerning them)

#32 Postby Freemage » Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:23 am

ZenFox42 wrote:(I think you meant 4 attacks, Valhalla never said anything about 5 attacks...)

Then the same thing applies to Deskepticon's original suggestion - add in Frenzy+Improved Frenzy, and you've got 4 attacks, with only a -2 MAP to each of them.

Now, Valhalla was focusing on the damage, but since he was hypothesizing a (*very*) Legendary character, it's not hard to imagine that his Fighting would be d12+2, so he'd still have an 88% chance of each attack succeeding. Add in all the Edges Valhalla mentioned, and a PC using Deskepticon's approach is doing 4 attacks with just as much damage.

OTOH, how likely is it for a PC to get to the extreme that Valhalla described (6+ Legendary advances)? Just because it's *possible*, doesn't mean it's *probable*. Also note that my Edges don't require Martial Artist at all, so a PC who wants an extra attack might not end up doing d12+d6+16 damage with it.

And, as you pointed out, 6 (or 7, in your case) Edges to get 4 attacks with no penalties sounds about right, since you need 2 Edges for 2 attacks, and 4 Edges for 3 attacks, without penalty (by RAW).


Originally, I agreed with you. (And yes, I meant 4 attacks.)

But then Valhalla pointed out Savage Rifts, specifically, and... *Shudder*. I did a little bit of tinkering, and came up with a Martial Artist Combat Cyborg who was able to do d12+d6+14 damage with every unarmed attack at Novice--I think the average there is around 25-26 per hit, and since the build also has d12 Fighting, you're going to hit a lot. From there, it would be a fairly simple matter to add on the Feat chains listed above, allowing up to 4 Doom Strikes per round by Seasoned or Veteran at the latest--and in the meantime, you'd pick up an additional 2-3 points of damage by increasing Strength. By the time you get to Legendary and start dropping in the last few MAMs, you'll end up a god of close combat, with no one remotely able to match your prowess (or withstand it, in most cases).

Sure, that's Savage Rifts, but it does demonstrate just how far out of whack this can get--that's almost Glitterboy damage at Novice, from a fist.

ValhallaGH
Legendary
Posts: 8293
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:15 pm

Re: Off-Hand Attacks (and some ideas concerning them)

#33 Postby ValhallaGH » Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:49 am

Something that seems to have been overlooked in this discussion, but is relevant: Trappings.

Specifically, trappings for combat edges like Frenzy and (especially) Sweep. Spin kicks, bicycle kicks, flip kicks, and even using your foes as stepping stones can all be resolved by the game mechanics for those two edges. Need to fight four or more foes at once? Sweep is your friend, letting you hit them all in a series of brutal close combat strikes (youtube).
Trappings let you make anything look cooler, with lots of Furious action, Fun results, and the same Fast resolution Savage Worlds is known for.
"Got a problem? I've got the solution: Rocket Launcher."
"Not against a Servitor."
"... We're all gonna die."

User avatar
ZenFox42
Veteran
Posts: 584
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2014 3:25 am

Re: Off-Hand Attacks (and some ideas concerning them)

#34 Postby ZenFox42 » Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:20 am

Jounichi mentioned Trappings twice, but Deskepticon didn't address his points, so I got the feeling that Deskepticon was looking for something more rule-crunchy.

And, to my mind, there's a disconnect between making *one* Attack roll (Sweep) and describing 3 or 4 different *results* from that attack ("I knife the first guy, elbow the second, and kick the third" - isn't that a main-hand weapon attack, an off-hand punch, and a RAW-impossible third kind of attack?). But maybe that's just me, being unfamiliar with the subtleties of Trappings.

Your point about the table time needed to resolve 4 attacks is valid, but from a damage point of view, it's that +12 that's the killer (pun intended). I would respectfully suggest that Martial Arts Master is broken, and should be modified in some way (like, you can only take it a maximum of 1 or 2 times, or it only provides +1 per use, or something).


Freemage wrote:I did a little bit of tinkering, and came up with a Martial Artist Combat Cyborg who was able to do d12+d6+14 damage with every unarmed attack at Novice--I think the average there is around 25-26 per hit, and since the build also has d12 Fighting, you're going to hit a lot. From there, it would be a fairly simple matter to add on the Feat chains listed above, allowing up to 4 Doom Strikes per round by Seasoned or Veteran...

Well, that tells me that Savage Rifts is out-of-kilter with respect to damage, too (silly me, I went with a Mind Melter who can deal 3d6 damage 4 at a time, but only 5 times *per day*). But what does all that have to do with 3 (RAW) vs. 4 attacks per round? No matter how much damage you're doing, it's 33% more with 4 attacks. (But I am curious, how did you get the extra +12 to the damage?)
Savage Summaries-RAW, with added info from Clint:Combat Actions,Cover,Healing,Using Powers,Grappling,Chases

Also:Persuasion,Better Bosses,Better Combat Rating

And:historical tech levels,generic sci-fi tech levels

Freemage
Veteran
Posts: 946
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 10:18 pm

Re: Off-Hand Attacks (and some ideas concerning them)

#35 Postby Freemage » Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:19 am

ZenFox42 wrote:Jounichi mentioned Trappings twice, but Deskepticon didn't address his points, so I got the feeling that Deskepticon was looking for something more rule-crunchy.

And, to my mind, there's a disconnect between making *one* Attack roll (Sweep) and describing 3 or 4 different *results* from that attack ("I knife the first guy, elbow the second, and kick the third" - isn't that a main-hand weapon attack, an off-hand punch, and a RAW-impossible third kind of attack?). But maybe that's just me, being unfamiliar with the subtleties of Trappings.

Your point about the table time needed to resolve 4 attacks is valid, but from a damage point of view, it's that +12 that's the killer (pun intended). I would respectfully suggest that Martial Arts Master is broken, and should be modified in some way (like, you can only take it a maximum of 1 or 2 times, or it only provides +1 per use, or something).


Freemage wrote:I did a little bit of tinkering, and came up with a Martial Artist Combat Cyborg who was able to do d12+d6+14 damage with every unarmed attack at Novice--I think the average there is around 25-26 per hit, and since the build also has d12 Fighting, you're going to hit a lot. From there, it would be a fairly simple matter to add on the Feat chains listed above, allowing up to 4 Doom Strikes per round by Seasoned or Veteran...

Well, that tells me that Savage Rifts is out-of-kilter with respect to damage, too (silly me, I went with a Mind Melter who can deal 3d6 damage 4 at a time, but only 5 times *per day*). But what does all that have to do with 3 (RAW) vs. 4 attacks per round? No matter how much damage you're doing, it's 33% more with 4 attacks. (But I am curious, how did you get the extra +12 to the damage?)


Wait, I think I misread something, and it might be a bit higher than it should be.

Base Unarmed is d12 + 2 + d6
HJ Table result: Martial Artist and Brawler (MA does nothing, Brawler adds +2 to damage)
HJ Table: Combat Edge: Improved Martial Artist
x2 Hindrances: Martial Arts Master x2 (+4)
IF Edge: Martial Arts Master (+2)

Okay, so yes, "only" d12 + d6 + 10 damage. Of course, as noted, every Rank thereafter, you add 1 Strength, plus another one by taking Upgrade and using one of your 6 remaining Strain (from Upgradable), giving you a net +2 per Rank. By the time you get to Legendary (unlocking the last to M.A.M. Edges), you'll be at d12 + d6 + 20

OTOH:

Human MARS Power Armor Jock
Triax Predator (Base Strength: d12 + 6)
F&G Table result: Two HJ Table Results
HJ Table result: Martial Artist and Brawler (MA gives +d4, Brawler adds +2 to damage)
HJ Table result: Combat Edge: Improved Martial Artist (gives +d6)
x2 Hindrances: Martial Arts Master x2 (+4)
Racial Edge: Martial Arts Master (+2)
MARS Advances: Two-Fisted, Ambidextrous, Trademark Weapon (Unarmed, if your GM allows this), Frenzy

That'll be d12 + d6 + 14 at Novice, but with the downside of not really being able to increase at all until Legendary, and then only being able to get an additional +4. Furthermore, assuming the GM finds TW (U) acceptable, then you can make 3 attacks per round at -1, or 2 attacks per round at +1, right out of the gate (the 'Borg will need to advance twice to get the first 'free' attack).

So if you're wanting to go full-on Mech-Fu, the Power Armor jock works better for a one-shot, but the Combat 'Borg is the way to go for a full campagin.

ValhallaGH
Legendary
Posts: 8293
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:15 pm

Re: Off-Hand Attacks (and some ideas concerning them)

#36 Postby ValhallaGH » Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:39 am

ZenFox42 wrote:And, to my mind, there's a disconnect between making *one* Attack roll (Sweep) and describing 3 or 4 different *results* from that attack ("I knife the first guy, elbow the second, and kick the third" - isn't that a main-hand weapon attack, an off-hand punch, and a RAW-impossible third kind of attack?). But maybe that's just me, being unfamiliar with the subtleties of Trappings.

Well, Sweep has one attack roll and multiple damage rolls. Each of which gets to have a different result, which can do Incapacitated, Shaken, and Nothing, which the GM (or player) could describe as knife to jaw (knife hand or blade, depending upon Assassin's Creed level of the campaign), elbow to neck, and wrestling kick.
I know I've described Frenzy and Rapid Attack results as stab, slash, and pommel strike based upon the damage results, and what sounds like a cool scene.

If a player was running a Bruce Lee or Jet Li knock-off and used Sweep, I'd have no problem with a flurry of skillful strikes in every direction. As long as the flavor allows for hitting allies and enemies, because the game mechanics do that, and flavor should fit game mechanics.
"Got a problem? I've got the solution: Rocket Launcher."
"Not against a Servitor."
"... We're all gonna die."

User avatar
ZenFox42
Veteran
Posts: 584
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2014 3:25 am

Re: Off-Hand Attacks (and some ideas concerning them)

#37 Postby ZenFox42 » Wed Apr 19, 2017 8:33 am

Freemage - so, by basing your builds on random table results, that's not a build I can *choose*. If you're honestly rolling dice off the table, the odds of getting those particular combinations to allow so much damage right off the bat are very small...
Savage Summaries-RAW, with added info from Clint:Combat Actions,Cover,Healing,Using Powers,Grappling,Chases

Also:Persuasion,Better Bosses,Better Combat Rating

And:historical tech levels,generic sci-fi tech levels

ValhallaGH
Legendary
Posts: 8293
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:15 pm

Re: Off-Hand Attacks (and some ideas concerning them)

#38 Postby ValhallaGH » Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:34 am

ZenFox42 wrote:Freemage - so, by basing your builds on random table results, that's not a build I can *choose*. If you're honestly rolling dice off the table, the odds of getting those particular combinations to allow so much damage right off the bat are very small...

Not as small as you'd expect.
All of those tables are d20 tables, with a two number result that's basically "choose what you want". So, a 20% chance on each roll (4 desired results on a d20).
Additionally, a character can trade two results for one chosen result, even after rolling. So while the odds of getting the two desired results are low (about 4%), the odds of getting at least one of those results is certainty.
"Got a problem? I've got the solution: Rocket Launcher."
"Not against a Servitor."
"... We're all gonna die."

Freemage
Veteran
Posts: 946
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 10:18 pm

Re: Off-Hand Attacks (and some ideas concerning them)

#39 Postby Freemage » Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:47 am

ValhallaGH wrote:
ZenFox42 wrote:Freemage - so, by basing your builds on random table results, that's not a build I can *choose*. If you're honestly rolling dice off the table, the odds of getting those particular combinations to allow so much damage right off the bat are very small...

Not as small as you'd expect.
All of those tables are d20 tables, with a two number result that's basically "choose what you want". So, a 20% chance on each roll (4 desired results on a d20).
Additionally, a character can trade two results for one chosen result, even after rolling. So while the odds of getting the two desired results are low (about 4%), the odds of getting at least one of those results is certainty.


Actually, I'm assuming that the GM rules that the trade-off has to happen before the rolls. That's why the character had to use the F&G "Two HJ rolls" option.

Start with 3 F&G, and 3 HJ. Use two F&G to buy a "called option"; take the 2 HJ rolls. You now have 1 F&G roll and 5 HJ rolls. Trade four HJ rolls (on the Training Table) to take Martial Artist/Brawler and Combat Edge. You still have one F&G roll and one HJ roll--note that if you get Rich with that F&G roll, you can go over to the Cybernetics Table and roll three times (once for your spare HJ, twice more for Rich), and end up with as many as three more Strength bumps out of the gate.

EDIT to add cheese topping:

If I were allowing "called rolls" to the extent ZenFox42 thought I was, the breakdown would be:

Base Unarmed is d12 + 2 + d6
HJ Training Table: Martial Artist and Brawler (MA does nothing, Brawler adds +2 to damage)
HJ Training Table: Combat Edge: Improved Martial Artist
HJ Cybernetics Table: Bionic Strength Augmentation (+1)
x2 Hindrances: Martial Arts Master x2 (+4)
IF Edge: Martial Arts Master (+2)

d12 + d6 + 11 total unarmed MDC, with limitless growth potential


Human MARS Power Armor Jock
Triax Predator (Base Strength: d12 + 6)
F&G Table: Two HJ Table Results
F&G Table: Strong & Powerful (+1 Strength)
F&G Table: Rich & Connected (Rich grants 2 additional HJ: Cybernetics rolls)
HJ Training Table: Martial Artist and Brawler (MA gives +d4, Brawler adds +2 to damage)
HJ Training Table: Combat Edge: Improved Martial Artist (gives +d6)
HJ Cybernetics Table (x2): Bionic Strength Augmentation (+2 Strength)
x2 Hindrances: Martial Arts Master x2 (+4)
Racial Edge: Martial Arts Master (+2)
Novice 1 and Seasoned 1 Advances: Both Strength-die bumps
MARS Advances: Two-Fisted, Ambidextrous, Trademark Weapon (Unarmed, if your GM allows this), Frenzy

Still d12 + d6 + 14 at Novice, in your suit, but now (assuming you started at d6 Strength to begin with), you're at d12 + d6 + 8 even out of your suit, and this can be increased over time with further Cybernetics (you're now at your max base Strength, so that can only go so far). Assuming you ultimately get to d12 Spirit & Vigor, and thus can take a total of 12 Strain of Bionic Strength, as well as the remaining MAM Edges, you'll max out at d12 + d6 + 24 (Strength d12 flesh, +12 Bionics, + 10 MAM, +2 Brawler, +d6 IMA). So you'll actually want to jump OUT of your Power Armor to use your full strength when needed. Sometime around Heroic, I suggest getting AB [Miracles] and Champion, to get that +2 against supernatural evil--you'll never get a spell off with that Strain, of course, but who cares? You punch greater demons through the face. Not in, through.

User avatar
ZenFox42
Veteran
Posts: 584
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2014 3:25 am

Re: Off-Hand Attacks (and some ideas concerning them)

#40 Postby ZenFox42 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:03 am

Ah. I wasn't aware of the trade-off ability. But looking thru my Savage RIFTS The Tomorrow Legion Player's Guide (2016), I only see that "2-for-1" tradeoff offered on the MARS F&G table, but not on any of the others...???

In addition, the cyborg build gives "two rolls on any of the following tables: Cybernetics, Close Combat Weapons, Ranged Weapons, and Training. They gain a third roll on any table except those dealing with magic, psionics, or Body Armor." So, 3 rolls, not 6.

Are you using a different RIFTS Setting? And what does "HJ" and "IF" stand for? :?
Savage Summaries-RAW, with added info from Clint:Combat Actions,Cover,Healing,Using Powers,Grappling,Chases

Also:Persuasion,Better Bosses,Better Combat Rating

And:historical tech levels,generic sci-fi tech levels


Return to “SW General Chat & Game Stories”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest