Powering up Tricks and Tests of Will

Just got your book, can't find a copy, have a cool adventure idea or story? Chat about it here.

Moderators: PEG Jodi, The Moderators

Message
Author
RichardMardoc
Novice
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:34 am
Location: Italy
Contact:

Powering up Tricks and Tests of Will

#1 Postby RichardMardoc » Thu Apr 13, 2017 2:28 am

What about powering up a bit Tricks and Tests of Will?

After Shane decided to officially introduce the "get out of shaken now with a success instead of a raise" rule it was great to speed up fightings, but non-fighting characters are not so effective in battle anymore. It's a pity! It was a huge pro for the Savage Worlds rule set! So I'm trying to rebalance this somehow. Any suggestion? I made up 4 possible solutions, what do you think?

1. What do you think about powering up Tricks and Tests of Will merging their raise effect with the success effect? With a success you gain the bonus as usual (+2 to you or -2 to target Parry) AND the target is shaken. No more effects on a raise.
2. Another solution could be to invert the success and raise effects. With a success the target is shaken, with a raise it is shaken and you gain the usual bonus (+2 to you or -2 to target Parry)
3. A third solution could be you can choose the effect after rolling, if you had a success choose one effect, with a raise choose two effects. Available effects are "+2 to your next action" , "-2 to target Parry" , "target Shaken".
4. Wild cards (new Shaken rule) can recover and act immediately from Shaken with a success of Spirit check. All the others (old Shaken rule) with a success can recover but using their entire action, with a raise can recover and act immediately.
5. [thanks to dentris] Not making easier to recover but heavier to be Shaken. Use the new Shaken rule (everyone can recover from Shaken and act immediately with a success of Spirit check) but with this addendum to the "Shaken" condition: Against Shaken opponent, all actions are made at +1. When a group of extras attacks a character they are considered as simultaneous attacks: Shaken status is checked only before the attacks, so the +1 is applied only if the victim is Shaken before the attack.
Last edited by RichardMardoc on Thu Apr 13, 2017 10:50 am, edited 6 times in total.
========================================
Italian Savagepedia Admin (http://savagepediaitalia.wikidot.com)
Italian Facebook SW-Fan Group Admin (https://www.facebook.com/groups/savageworldsitaliafan/)

User avatar
Zadmar
Legendary
Posts: 3290
Age: 42
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:59 am
Location: Munich
Contact:

Re: Powering up Tricks and Tests of Will

#2 Postby Zadmar » Thu Apr 13, 2017 2:39 am

All the groups I play with prefer to use the old Shaken rule, and that seems to be the easiest solution. Beefing up Tricks and Tests of Will is addressing the symptoms rather than the cause; if you go that route, you'll need to find further solutions to deal with powers, suppressive fire, etc.
My blog: Savage Stuff. I've also written some free tools and supplements.

RichardMardoc
Novice
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:34 am
Location: Italy
Contact:

Re: Powering up Tricks and Tests of Will

#3 Postby RichardMardoc » Thu Apr 13, 2017 2:51 am

Thank you, Zadmar, very good point.
So what about this other option (I'll add it to the list avove) :
4. Wild cards (new Shaken rule) can recover and act immediately from Shaken with a success of Spirit check. All the others (old Shaken rule) with a success can recover but using their entire action, with a raise can recover and act immediately.
========================================
Italian Savagepedia Admin (http://savagepediaitalia.wikidot.com)
Italian Facebook SW-Fan Group Admin (https://www.facebook.com/groups/savageworldsitaliafan/)

User avatar
ZenFox42
Veteran
Posts: 584
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2014 3:25 am

Re: Powering up Tricks and Tests of Will

#4 Postby ZenFox42 » Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:49 am

#4 would probably throw the balance of the fight *WAY* in favor of the PC's, seeing as with a Wild Die their chances of being able to act every round are very high (75% with just a d6 Spirit die), while their Extra opponents could be unable to act for quite some time (just 12% chance of recovery on a d8 Spirit die). One of the mantras of SW is "a rule is ok as long as it applies to the PC's and NPC's equally", which this rule doesn't.
Savage Summaries-RAW, with added info from Clint:Combat Actions,Cover,Healing,Using Powers,Grappling,Chases
Also:Persuasion,Better Bosses,Better Combat Rating
And:historical tech levels,generic sci-fi tech levels

RichardMardoc
Novice
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:34 am
Location: Italy
Contact:

Re: Powering up Tricks and Tests of Will

#5 Postby RichardMardoc » Thu Apr 13, 2017 8:35 am

ZenFox42 wrote:One of the mantras of SW is "a rule is ok as long as it applies to the PC's and NPC's equally", which this rule doesn't.


Thank you ZenFox42,
I completely understand your point, I really thank you for that, but I don't think my #4 option "breaks" the rules (or mantras), that's why :
- there are also Wild Card opponents (they can recover as fast as the PC's)
- Some Extra non-wild-card opponent could have (like some already have) a special ability like "+2 to recover from Shaken". I think that's enough, but you can even create some "+4 to recover from Shaken" opponent if you really need to.

Maybe you're worried to have too much easy fightings for the PC's?
What if you just have 1 Wild Card opponents almost in every fighting? Or what if some opponents just have the "Command" Edge (+1 to troops recovering from being Shaken). Plus remember the GM can always use the GM Bennies to recover NPC's if needed!


What I'm trying to do is to keep the effectiveness of a non-combat PC from the "old Shaken rule" without have to get rid of the fast combat resolution of the "new Shane's Shaken rule". I think the option #4 is nice because it doesn't need to change many rules, maybe if you really want, you can simply adapt your fightings adding more opponents, or just one Wild Card. I think it could be an easy workaround without major changes.

Or maybe there is another solution, a better one, and I think we can only get there if we share ideas and critics .. so thank you all! Keep doing that! :D
========================================
Italian Savagepedia Admin (http://savagepediaitalia.wikidot.com)
Italian Facebook SW-Fan Group Admin (https://www.facebook.com/groups/savageworldsitaliafan/)

ValhallaGH
Legendary
Posts: 8293
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:15 pm

Re: Powering up Tricks and Tests of Will

#6 Postby ValhallaGH » Thu Apr 13, 2017 8:36 am

ZenFox42 wrote:One of the mantras of SW is "a rule is ok as long as it applies to the PC's and NPC's equally", which this rule doesn't.

It would, actually. Apply to the same to enemy and allied Extras as well as enemy Wild Cards.

It will generate a kind of Exalted feel, where Wild Cards are incredibly powerful creatures that plow through combats that leave normal mortals bleeding in the dust.

Zadmar wrote:All the groups I play with prefer to use the old Shaken rule,

Strange, I've had the opposite reaction. All the groups I used to, or still, play with prefer the new Shaken rules.
I wonder if there's an element of presentation bias in the acceptance process. The person presenting the rules has an opinion that gets expressed in various ways, and the group follows that bias. What's your personal preference?
"Got a problem? I've got the solution: Rocket Launcher."
"Not against a Servitor."
"... We're all gonna die."

User avatar
dentris
Veteran
Posts: 731
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2007 6:41 pm

Re: Powering up Tricks and Tests of Will

#7 Postby dentris » Thu Apr 13, 2017 8:37 am

You also have to consider the reasons behind the changes.

First, it was to get rid of the stun-lock mechanism, especially for wild cards. It is bad enough to be easier to wound, the old rules also increased your chance of not doing anything this round drastically (unless you use a Benny, but using a Benny is supposed to be about doing something awesome, not simply acting)

Second, when a GM has to control dozens of extras, s/he has to remember which extra got a raise and which extra only succeeded. It might not seem much, but it's extra bookeeping and it can add up fast. Up/Down/Off the table was one of the earliest SW design choice and the old Shaken rule was not exactly this.


If you want to power up Shaken, I recommend adding a little something to the Shaken status instead of making it harder to remove. Remember though that Shaken is already doing a lot. You are easier to wound, you cannot perform any reactions (withdrawing from melee against A Shaken opponent is perfectly safe for example, and that's a bid deal let me tell you), you may not act (although the chances of this are lower), etc. You also want to keep bookkeeping to a minimum. Even for a player with only a single character, it's not that easy to remember all the things affecting you. Now put yourself in the shoes of your GM, who has to take care of dozens of extras and WC.

Here's my proposal. Against Shaken opponent, all actions are made at +1. It's simple, it also stacks with the effects of both Tricks and Tests of Will and doesn't require that much more bookkeeping. It also fits thematically with the rest of the Shaken status (you are disoriented, stunned, preoccupied, etc.). I wouldn't use it because it is a powerful effect and I find the current Shaken status quite appropriate, however.
But the Voice consoles me and it says: "Keep your dreams;
Wise men do not have such beautiful ones as fools!"
--Baudelaire, Les Fleurs du Mal, 1857, Translated by William Aggeler, 1954

RichardMardoc
Novice
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:34 am
Location: Italy
Contact:

Re: Powering up Tricks and Tests of Will

#8 Postby RichardMardoc » Thu Apr 13, 2017 9:11 am

dentris wrote:Here's my proposal. Against Shaken opponent, all actions are made at +1. It's simple, it also stacks with the effects of both Tricks and Tests of Will and doesn't require that much more bookkeeping. It also fits thematically with the rest of the Shaken status (you are disoriented, stunned, preoccupied, etc.). I wouldn't use it because it is a powerful effect and I find the current Shaken status quite appropriate, however.


Wow dentris this is a VERY NICE solution indeed!
I'll add it to my first post as #5 if you don't mind. Thank you! I think that's exactly what I was searching for!


Just some more words to explain why I would use it even if Shaken status is already quite strong:
I'd like to see more supporter PC's, we have Fighters, we have healers, but I think the game will be so nice for some "out of the box" players if they could make a trickster/distracter/etc... : someone who is not directly effective in combat by himself, but can really make a difference in a party basically by Tests of Will and/or Tricks.
Right now the "problem" is that if a Fighter gets a Combat success he deals damages, if a Trickster gets a success basically loses his action just to have a further advantage (like if he used "aim") or deals a temporary -2 Parry malus. Even with a raise the Shaken malus is temporary, and if the trickster is unlucky the enemy could be the first to act in the next round.
So he basically now loses his action to provide a small party bonus just in a small timeframe = Playing a trickster is very disappointing. I'd like if to play a trickster could be like staying out of the main scene (basically you do not attack) but at least provide a small bonus for much longer (keep it difficult to recover) or provide strong and concrete bonus for your party even for a small timeframe (like you proposed). Something they can be thankful for. A direct +1 against a Shaken foe is a much more perceived contribution!
========================================
Italian Savagepedia Admin (http://savagepediaitalia.wikidot.com)
Italian Facebook SW-Fan Group Admin (https://www.facebook.com/groups/savageworldsitaliafan/)

User avatar
Zadmar
Legendary
Posts: 3290
Age: 42
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:59 am
Location: Munich
Contact:

Re: Powering up Tricks and Tests of Will

#9 Postby Zadmar » Thu Apr 13, 2017 9:21 am

ValhallaGH wrote:
Zadmar wrote:All the groups I play with prefer to use the old Shaken rule,

Strange, I've had the opposite reaction. All the groups I used to, or still, play with prefer the new Shaken rules.

I wonder if there's an element of presentation bias in the acceptance process. The person presenting the rules has an opinion that gets expressed in various ways, and the group follows that bias. What's your personal preference?

I prefer the old Shaken rule too, although I did give the new rule a try the last time I ran a Savage Worlds game, back in September. I don't mind the rule itself, to be honest, it's the impact it has on everything else that bothers me.

However I don't really GM Savage Worlds any more, and when I'm a player I'm usually pretty relaxed about things like that, so I'm fairly happy to go along with whatever the rest of the group want to do. It's just that the other GMs I play with regularly don't like the rule either.

dentris wrote:Here's my proposal. Against Shaken opponent, all actions are made at +1.

One of the reasons combat is so fast in Savage Worlds is that you can resolve the attacks for multiple Extras simultaneously, rolling their attacks like a dice pool and counting up successes and raises. With your proposal, that would no longer be possible, as the order of attacks would become important - you'd have to roll each attack separately, because once the victim became Shaken, future attacks would receive a +1 bonus.
My blog: Savage Stuff. I've also written some free tools and supplements.

RichardMardoc
Novice
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:34 am
Location: Italy
Contact:

Re: Powering up Tricks and Tests of Will

#10 Postby RichardMardoc » Thu Apr 13, 2017 9:29 am

Zadmar wrote:
dentris wrote:Here's my proposal. Against Shaken opponent, all actions are made at +1.

One of the reasons combat is so fast in Savage Worlds is that you can resolve the attacks for multiple Extras simultaneously, rolling their attacks like a dice pool and counting up successes and raises. With your proposal, that would no longer be possible, as the order of attacks would become important - you'd have to roll each attack separately, because once the victim became Shaken, future attacks would receive a +1 bonus.


I'm sorry maybe I'm wrong but isn't that the same if one of the victim has a -2 Parry because he did a "wild attack" or you did a "Trick" to him? I don't think it's such a big deal
========================================
Italian Savagepedia Admin (http://savagepediaitalia.wikidot.com)
Italian Facebook SW-Fan Group Admin (https://www.facebook.com/groups/savageworldsitaliafan/)

User avatar
Zadmar
Legendary
Posts: 3290
Age: 42
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:59 am
Location: Munich
Contact:

Re: Powering up Tricks and Tests of Will

#11 Postby Zadmar » Thu Apr 13, 2017 9:32 am

RichardMardoc wrote:I'm sorry maybe I'm wrong byt isn't that the same if one of the victim has a -2 Parry because he did a "wild attack" or you did a "Trick" to him?

No, because you don't roll mixed actions as a dice pool. If multiple characters attempt a Trick the order of resolution doesn't matter, because Tricks aren't rolled against Parry.
My blog: Savage Stuff. I've also written some free tools and supplements.

RichardMardoc
Novice
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:34 am
Location: Italy
Contact:

Re: Powering up Tricks and Tests of Will

#12 Postby RichardMardoc » Thu Apr 13, 2017 9:40 am

Zadmar wrote:
RichardMardoc wrote:I'm sorry maybe I'm wrong byt isn't that the same if one of the victim has a -2 Parry because he did a "wild attack" or you did a "Trick" to him?

No, because you don't roll mixed actions as a dice pool. If multiple characters attempt a Trick the order of resolution doesn't matter, because Tricks aren't rolled against Parry.


No, sorry I still don't get you, can you please make an example?
Why having 2 victims + 1 victim having -2 Parry (because he received a Trick)
is different compared to having 2 victims + 1 victim beeing Shaken (so for #5 all actions against him has a +1) ?
========================================
Italian Savagepedia Admin (http://savagepediaitalia.wikidot.com)
Italian Facebook SW-Fan Group Admin (https://www.facebook.com/groups/savageworldsitaliafan/)

User avatar
dentris
Veteran
Posts: 731
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2007 6:41 pm

Re: Powering up Tricks and Tests of Will

#13 Postby dentris » Thu Apr 13, 2017 9:49 am

RichardMardoc wrote:
Zadmar wrote:
RichardMardoc wrote:I'm sorry maybe I'm wrong byt isn't that the same if one of the victim has a -2 Parry because he did a "wild attack" or you did a "Trick" to him?

No, because you don't roll mixed actions as a dice pool. If multiple characters attempt a Trick the order of resolution doesn't matter, because Tricks aren't rolled against Parry.


No, sorry I still don't get you, can you please make an example?
Why having 2 victims + 1 victim having -2 Parry (because he received a Trick)
is different compared to having 2 victims + 1 victim beeing Shaken (so for #5 all actions against him has a +1) ?


If four extras attack a target, by RAW, you roll all four fighting dice and compared it to Fighting. Under my propositions, if the second extra manages to Shake the target, technically the last two would get a +1 bonus to their roll. Therefore, you could/should roll and resolve each of them seperatly.


Zadmar wrote:
dentris wrote:Here's my proposal. Against Shaken opponent, all actions are made at +1.

One of the reasons combat is so fast in Savage Worlds is that you can resolve the attacks for multiple Extras simultaneously, rolling their attacks like a dice pool and counting up successes and raises. With your proposal, that would no longer be possible, as the order of attacks would become important - you'd have to roll each attack separately, because once the victim became Shaken, future attacks would receive a +1 bonus.


I agree it adds a small layer, but a much smaller one than the old Shaken rules. In addition, when extras attack a target, I usually roll all attacks simulatneously. Since it is already a house rule, I don't see why you couldn't just handwave it as all extras attack you at the same time and get no further benefit if you are not Shaken at first and is Shaken by one of them. Not perfect, but manageable.
But the Voice consoles me and it says: "Keep your dreams;

Wise men do not have such beautiful ones as fools!"

--Baudelaire, Les Fleurs du Mal, 1857, Translated by William Aggeler, 1954

User avatar
Zadmar
Legendary
Posts: 3290
Age: 42
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:59 am
Location: Munich
Contact:

Re: Powering up Tricks and Tests of Will

#14 Postby Zadmar » Thu Apr 13, 2017 10:10 am

RichardMardoc wrote:No, sorry I still don't get you, can you please make an example?

Ten goblins launch attacks against a single Wild Card ogre. They're using spears (so no Gang Up) and have Fighting d6, while the ogre has Parry 6.

Normal situation: You roll 10d6, ignore anything below 6. In this particular example one attack hits with a normal success, another hits with a raise, so you make the two damage rolls. One causes the ogre to become Shaken. The order of resolution doesn't matter.

With the "+1 against Shaken foes" proposal: The +1 bonus increases the chance of hitting from 16.7% to 33.3%, so it's now important to know when the ogre becomes Shaken. Instead of rolling 10d6 as a dice pool and ignoring anything below 6, you now have to roll 1d6 ten times; any 5s rolled after the ogre becomes Shaken will becomes successful hits.

RichardMardoc wrote:Why having 2 victims + 1 victim having -2 Parry (because he received a Trick) is different compared to having 2 victims + 1 victim beeing Shaken (so for #5 all actions against him has a +1) ?

Because a Trick isn't rolled against Parry, so the order of resolution doesn't matter. If you decide that all ten goblins are going to perform an Agility Trick then you roll 10d8 (however Tricks are opposed, so they are still going to slow you down).

A more likely scenario is that you decide a couple of the goblins will perform an Agility trick, and the rest will perform attacks. In that case you'd roll 2d8 for the Agility tricks and 8d6 for the attacks. In theory you could even roll them as a single dice pool, because they use different die types (d6 and d8), but even if they used the same die type you would still only need to make two sets of rolls.

dentris wrote:I agree it adds a small layer, but a much smaller one than the old Shaken rules.

Not sure what extra layer you're referring to. You mean that characters would frequently lose the chance to perform actions?

dentris wrote:In addition, when extras attack a target, I usually roll all attacks simulatneously. Since it is already a house rule, I don't see why you couldn't just handwave it as all extras attack you at the same time and get no further benefit if you are not Shaken at first and is Shaken by one of them. Not perfect, but manageable.

But then you're not actually using the house rule you've just added...and what about allies under player control? You can bet that they wouldn't want to handwave it. The last time I ran a Savage Worlds game, there were six players each controlling five characters (one Wild Card and four Extras). Combat was nice and fast, as they declared their targets and rolled for their allies as a dice pool.
My blog: Savage Stuff. I've also written some free tools and supplements.

User avatar
dentris
Veteran
Posts: 731
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2007 6:41 pm

Re: Powering up Tricks and Tests of Will

#15 Postby dentris » Thu Apr 13, 2017 10:15 am

If the player starts Shaken, then all the extras attacking him get a +1 bonus. Like I said, I wouldn't be using this rule myslef, only giving it as an option to others. I'm perfectly fine with the rules as they are.

EDIT: Let's try to break it down and keep it as simple as possible.

When Shaken, all actions against a character is made at +1

When a group of extras attacks a character, Shaken status is checked before all attacks. If the character is Shaken before any of them roll, apply the +1.
But the Voice consoles me and it says: "Keep your dreams;

Wise men do not have such beautiful ones as fools!"

--Baudelaire, Les Fleurs du Mal, 1857, Translated by William Aggeler, 1954

RichardMardoc
Novice
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:34 am
Location: Italy
Contact:

Re: Powering up Tricks and Tests of Will

#16 Postby RichardMardoc » Thu Apr 13, 2017 10:44 am

dentris wrote:If four extras attack a target, by RAW, you roll all four fighting dice and compared it to Fighting. Under my propositions, if the second extra manages to Shake the target, technically the last two would get a +1 bonus to their roll. Therefore, you could/should roll and resolve each of them seperatly.


Zadmar wrote:Ten goblins launch attacks against a single Wild Card ogre. They're using spears (so no Gang Up) and have Fighting d6, while the ogre has Parry 6.

Normal situation: You roll 10d6, ignore anything below 6. In this particular example one attack hits with a normal success, another hits with a raise, so you make the two damage rolls. One causes the ogre to become Shaken. The order of resolution doesn't matter.

With the "+1 against Shaken foes" proposal: The +1 bonus increases the chance of hitting from 16.7% to 33.3%, so it's now important to know when the ogre becomes Shaken. Instead of rolling 10d6 as a dice pool and ignoring anything below 6, you now have to roll 1d6 ten times; any 5s rolled after the ogre becomes Shaken will becomes successful hits.


Ahh ok, thank you, I got it now. Yes you're right.

dentris wrote:When a group of extras attacks a character, Shaken status is checked before all attacks. If the character is Shaken before any of them roll, apply the +1


Yes, I think it's the easiest solution, thank you again :)
========================================
Italian Savagepedia Admin (http://savagepediaitalia.wikidot.com)
Italian Facebook SW-Fan Group Admin (https://www.facebook.com/groups/savageworldsitaliafan/)

Freemage
Veteran
Posts: 946
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 10:18 pm

Re: Powering up Tricks and Tests of Will

#17 Postby Freemage » Thu Apr 13, 2017 10:48 am

Zadmar wrote:
RichardMardoc wrote:No, sorry I still don't get you, can you please make an example?

Ten goblins launch attacks against a single Wild Card ogre. They're using spears (so no Gang Up) and have Fighting d6, while the ogre has Parry 6.

Normal situation: You roll 10d6, ignore anything below 6. In this particular example one attack hits with a normal success, another hits with a raise, so you make the two damage rolls. One causes the ogre to become Shaken. The order of resolution doesn't matter.

That last bit technically isn't true. Since the "hit with a Raise" gets an extra d6 damage, order could very easily matter--putting the higher damage roll first makes it more likely that you'll end up with two wounds on the Ogre, rather than one.

Say the Ogre has Toughness 9.

Success Goblin rolls 9 damage; Raise Goblin manages to roll 13 damage. If Raise Goblin is applied first, the Ogre suffers a wound, and is Shaken, whereupon Success Goblin's Shaken deals a second Wound. Conversely, applying the rolls in reverse order would give the Ogre a single Wound--he gets Shaken by the Success Goblin, and then hit for one Wound by the second--his Shaken status has no affect on a Wounding blow.

ValhallaGH
Legendary
Posts: 8293
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:15 pm

Re: Powering up Tricks and Tests of Will

#18 Postby ValhallaGH » Thu Apr 13, 2017 12:51 pm

Given that ogres typically have Toughness 12 (1) (see the core rules, bestiary), the numbers are a bit off.

Regardless, order damage is applied matters, but which hit landed first is mostly irrelevant. Like most Savage Worlds players, I've had a lot of "hit with raise" result in lower damage than "hit", due to the variability of Acing damage dice. As long as the resolution order is mostly consistent, the results should be fair. If the GM usually rolls normal damage before Raise damage, or vice versa, then the game play will be fair, and faster than resolving each attack of each Extra with the individual attention of a player-controlled Wild Card.

Play speed and fun will always force a trade off with granularity. Maximizing the interaction of those three is a difficult problem, and the optimum result can vary pretty wildly between various groups and individuals.
For most of us, rolling a fistful of Extras at the same time is optimal. Once they hit, you'll need to resolve the damage results in some kind of order (because resolution order matters) but determining that order is arbitrary; as long as the choice is consistent, the choice itself doesn't matter much.
"Got a problem? I've got the solution: Rocket Launcher."
"Not against a Servitor."
"... We're all gonna die."

Freemage
Veteran
Posts: 946
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 10:18 pm

Re: Powering up Tricks and Tests of Will

#19 Postby Freemage » Thu Apr 13, 2017 2:11 pm

ValhallaGH wrote:Given that ogres typically have Toughness 12 (1) (see the core rules, bestiary), the numbers are a bit off.

Regardless, order damage is applied matters, but which hit landed first is mostly irrelevant. Like most Savage Worlds players, I've had a lot of "hit with raise" result in lower damage than "hit", due to the variability of Acing damage dice. As long as the resolution order is mostly consistent, the results should be fair. If the GM usually rolls normal damage before Raise damage, or vice versa, then the game play will be fair, and faster than resolving each attack of each Extra with the individual attention of a player-controlled Wild Card.

Play speed and fun will always force a trade off with granularity. Maximizing the interaction of those three is a difficult problem, and the optimum result can vary pretty wildly between various groups and individuals.
For most of us, rolling a fistful of Extras at the same time is optimal. Once they hit, you'll need to resolve the damage results in some kind of order (because resolution order matters) but determining that order is arbitrary; as long as the choice is consistent, the choice itself doesn't matter much.


Honestly, I agree with you, and do the group-attack rolls in pretty much exactly the way you describe (though I put Normal Damage before Raise Damage, because I'm a softie and that's marginally less likely to be the more lethal order)--I was simply noting the small edge case where Zadmar's statement was less than 100% accurate, because occasionally I am an insufferable pedant. :wink:

As for the ogre's toughness, well, I was merely assuming the presence of an off-screen goblin shaman who had cast Greater Lower Trait on the Ogre, kicking him down 4 die-types of Vigor, but that the Ogre himself had slightly better armor than normal. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

User avatar
Zadmar
Legendary
Posts: 3290
Age: 42
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:59 am
Location: Munich
Contact:

Re: Powering up Tricks and Tests of Will

#20 Postby Zadmar » Thu Apr 13, 2017 3:55 pm

Freemage wrote:Since the "hit with a Raise" gets an extra d6 damage, order could very easily matter--putting the higher damage roll first makes it more likely that you'll end up with two wounds on the Ogre, rather than one.

That's not a new problem though, you're going to run into the exact same issue with Frenzy, Rapid Attack, Bolt, Autofire, and so on. The official answer is that "A player can choose the order to roll damage based on the attack result (meaning if one is a normal hit and one a hit with a raise, the player can choose which one to roll damage for first)".
My blog: Savage Stuff. I've also written some free tools and supplements.


Return to “SW General Chat & Game Stories”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest