[50F] Recosting/Rebalancing the races

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Jounichi
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Re: [50F] Recosting/Rebalancing the races

#21 Postby Jounichi » Wed Apr 05, 2017 5:20 pm

And the Keehana are a weak race to begin with, so some kind of buff is, I think, needed. I just wanted you to know how it's supposed to be valued to better adjust.

As for pricing gliding at +3, the ability to stay airborn in such a setting is impressive. It may not be out of the question to value it as a strong ability and therefore price it higher than aquatic or more pure flying.

To put flying and swimming in perspective, 1/2 pace is your character's mph. Full pace swimmers with just a d6 can cover 3 grid squares in one day before needing rest, as much the fastest ships. Personally I think that's a math error on the map's scale, but it is what it is. Just being able to glide from ship-to-ship without needing aid is powrtful, as is gliding away from danger.
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JamesG
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Re: [50F] Recosting/Rebalancing the races

#22 Postby JamesG » Thu Apr 06, 2017 4:31 pm

Jounichi wrote:And the Keehana are a weak race to begin with, so some kind of buff is, I think, needed. I just wanted you to know how it's supposed to be valued to better adjust.


I do appreciate you pointing it out. I just don't think having both claw and bite, as opposed to claw or bite, is really worth all that much. Certainly not worth enough to justify the downgrade from d6 to d4 on the damage. After all the addition of bite does not even allow a third attack, and bite attacks suffer a -2 "off hand" penalty. Citation: http://www.pegforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=384892#p384892

As an aside, if anyone in one my games took a race with bite (but not claws) as natural weaponry, I'd waive the off hand penalty. Bite is already a weaker choice than claws, since you can make two attacks with claws. No reason to throw a penalty on bite on top of that (IMO).

As for pricing gliding at +3, the ability to stay airborn in such a setting is impressive. It may not be out of the question to value it as a strong ability and therefore price it higher than aquatic or more pure flying.(emphasis mine)


Whether Gliding is more valuable than Aquatic abilities in a setting like 50 Fathoms is subjective, so no reason to go back and forth on that. But I'm not sure how you can value Gliding (as presented for the Atani) more than true flight in any setting. You have to remember that the Atani do not "glide" like an albatross, soaring aloft for great distances. They "glide" more like flying squirrels, only staying airborne for a short time.

In the SFC Flight costs +2 and allows the flyer to remain level or gain altitude without any special effort. Compare that to the Atani's Glider ability. They have to make a Flying skill roll to not lose altitude. If they want to gain altitude they need a Raise on the Flying roll. And since this is an Action, they will suffer MAP penalties if they want to do other things like attack on rounds they want to maintain/gain altitude.

These are pretty serious drawbacks. Enough that in a generic setting I'd probably value Glider as a +1 ability since true flight is +2. But I do agree with you that any type of flight, even pseudo-flight like Gliding, is very good in the 50 Fathoms setting. So I kept the value of the ability at +2 in my Atani write-up.

1/2 pace is your character's mph. Full pace swimmers with just a d6 can cover 3 grid squares in one day before needing rest, as much the fastest ships. Personally I think that's a math error on the map's scale, but it is what it is.


I think you miscalculated. Yes, a pace 6 swimmer does 3 mph for long distance travel. But travel time per day is considered 8 hours. So a swimmer can cover 24 miles in a day. A little over a square and a half on the 50F map (15 mile squares). And that is assuming you consider swimming in the ocean to be "easy" terrain. I think with currents and what not, "average" terrain can be justified. That lowers the speed to 2 mph or 16 miles a day; basically one 50F map square a day.

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Re: [50F] Recosting/Rebalancing the races

#23 Postby Jounichi » Thu Apr 06, 2017 7:01 pm

The main advantage of having bite and/or claws is you're never disarmed. And while you can fight with two claws as if they're small weapons (and thus apply the Close Combat Edge) you can also perform a bite attack while wielding a two-handed weapon or fighting "sword and board." You just have to designate a target for Ambidextrous.

As for aquatic races, I see no reason why they can't "travel" up to 18 hours in a day. For them, it's no different than walking on foot and unlike vehicular travel has no "limit" of eight hours in a day. Even if you impose an "average" travel condition, that's still 36 miles (two squares) in a day. It might be deserving of a Fatigue roll every 8 hours or so, but that's up to you.

And like I said before, I wasn't looking to throw off whatever balance might exist among the races. I fully recognize some are "weaker" than others, but I also don't entirely know how I'd go about "correcting" that. The tradeoff between not improving Smarts and having a -1 penalty while improving to a d6 is mostly negligible. A -2 penalty is severe no matter how you look at it. And I still don't know what I'd do about Keehana; which is partly why I hadn't even tried to evaluate them.

My work was more of a fun little exercise than anything else as I hadn't needed to implement any of them. In the short game I ran nobody chose one of them.
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Re: [50F] Recosting/Rebalancing the races

#24 Postby JamesG » Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:46 am

Sorry for my slow response, last week was a busy one. This is kind of off topic, but the main topic has died down. Plus I started the thread, so if anyone can drift off topic its me. :wink:

Jounichi wrote:As for aquatic races, I see no reason why they can't "travel" up to 18 hours in a day. For them, it's no different than walking on foot and unlike vehicular travel has no "limit" of eight hours in a day. Even if you impose an "average" travel condition, that's still 36 miles (two squares) in a day. It might be deserving of a Fatigue roll every 8 hours or so, but that's up to you.


Yeah, I knew the 8 hour a day limit was in the vehicle section, but I thought it might be a case like the illumination and cover rules. They apply to melee and ranged combat, even though they appear to be in the ranged combat section of the rules. Besides, hiking is more strenuous than driving, and if one can only sit on their butt behind the wheel of a car for 8 hours a day, it seems reasonable to say they can only hike for 8 hours a day. But I did a quick search and Clint has confirmed that there are no official rules in the core book for how far someone on foot can travel in a day. So if it is not spelled out in a setting book it is up the GM to decide.

So I checked how others have handled it. Zadmar adopted an 8 hour a day standard for overland travel in his blog post on house rules for travel. And DnD also uses 8 hours a day for travel. Note that DnD, like Savage Worlds, assumes 3 mph as the "normal" pace for a human for long distance travel. So I think its not a bad ruleset to draw inspiration from, at least for this topic. Both Zadmar and DnD propose Vigor/Constitution checks for each hour of travel in a day past 8 hours.

But this is all in the realm of house rules, so your ruling allowing aquatic races to swim for 18 hours in a day isn't "wrong". But since your complaint was that swimmers were covering too much ground (or sea) as compared to ships, then perhaps the solution is to scale back the hours a day they can swim.

As an aside, all this talk about travel speeds made me look at the per day travel rates for ships in SWD and in 50F. Unless I did some math wrong, ships are much slower in 50F than SWD. This is not anything I intend to try and "fix" but I did think it was interesting.

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Re: [50F] Recosting/Rebalancing the races

#25 Postby Jounichi » Mon Apr 17, 2017 10:28 am

Requiring the characters to roll Vigor every hour after the initial 8 isn't unreasonable, but a person isn't likely to hike 8 hours a day, either. Breaks are frequent (ideally you'd stop for a sip of water every 15 minutes), but on flat ground, a fit person can cover a mile in about 20 minutes so the 3 mph is accurate. If I recall correctly, every 100 feet in elevation change tacks on another 10 minutes per mile. But it has been almost 20 years since I did the math. Nowadays a lot of experienced hikers will break and set up camp around midday because it's the hottest time of day. They'll still expend energy setting up camp and likely gathering food for dinner, but they try to take it easy.

The reason why I put forth the idea of an aquatic character being able to swim all day (about 18 hours) is because the aquatic species can avoid that hot sun overhead when they travel underwater. At the very least the ocean can keep them cooler than they otherwise would be on land. Even if we just extended their travel time to 12 hours that's a big advantage.

And I'll agree wholeheartedly it's not terribly practical for an aquatic (or even a fast enough semi-aquatic) character to stay in the ocean alongside the boat. They lose out on roleplaying opportunities, and may not be able to contribute in certain situations. And then there's the matter of a wind mage increasing the ship's speed to 4+ squares in a day. I still think the map squares are too small (ships are slow), but it is what it is.
"Rush not in to fights. Long is the war. Only by surviving it, will you prevail." -Yoda

"Wise man once say, 'forgiveness is divine, but never pay full price for late pizza.'" -Michelangelo


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