D&D Next's advantage/disadvantage mechanism

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Aki
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D&D Next's advantage/disadvantage mechanism

#1 Postby Aki » Wed May 14, 2014 3:20 pm

Could D&D Next's advantage/disadvantage mechanic work in Savage Worlds? For those unfamiliar with it, whenever you have an advantage or disadvantage you roll 2d20. If you have advantage, take the higher die roll. If you are at a disadvantage, take the lower roll.

Transposed to Savage Worlds, you would roll the skill die twice taking the higher or lower roll.

The wild die is the odds wildcard here. It nerfs the problem of disadvantage while not affecting advantage at all.

Just a random musing.

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#2 Postby nizkateth » Wed May 14, 2014 3:34 pm

Wild Die kind of is advantage.
I guess disadvantage would be something like "you must take the lower of regular or wild die for this roll"?
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#3 Postby ogbendog » Wed May 14, 2014 3:43 pm

If I did that, I'd roll 2 skill die and the wild, and with advantage you just take the best, with disad you discard the highest skill die, then take either remaining skill die or wild.

that way it works for extra's as well
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Re: D&D Next's advantage/disadvantage mechanism

#4 Postby islan » Wed May 14, 2014 4:04 pm

Aki wrote:The wild die is the odds wildcard here. It nerfs the problem of disadvantage while not affecting advantage at all. .


Actually, it makes advantage even better: now you're rolling three dice taking the best, instead of two dice taking the best.

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#5 Postby ogbendog » Wed May 14, 2014 6:06 pm

2 dice taking the best is average for SW

3 dice with best is if you have advantage over your foe

3 dice (*best of wild die or (worst of trait)) is if you have disadvanrage
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#6 Postby werecorpse » Wed May 14, 2014 8:40 pm

I think part of the purpose of the advantage/disadvantage mechanic in d&d is to fit into the bounded accuracy plan they have. So you give a bonus to someone but it doesn't mean they can get a higher result than without that bonus ( ie if someone had 1d20+2 to hit and you give them advantage they still can't get a 23+ but if you give them a+2 they can get 24 ) . So the bounded accuracy is to keep TN's lower than they became in 3.5e ( ie armour class of 45+ at high level) and granting advantage gives a bonus without disrupting this.

In savage worlds with wild dice and exploding dice you don't really need that

Having said all that if you wanted to give an advantage mechanic rather than a small bonus I would use ogbendog's proposed method

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#7 Postby Cable Hogue » Thu May 15, 2014 2:46 am

An additional Skill die might get messy, when multiple Skill dice are rolled in one action like: automatic fire, multiple bolts, Frenzy edge, rapid attack, etc.

The dice mechanics in D&D Next are focussed on a SINGLE die roll - regardless of your character being able to use spells, feats, whatever might attack more than one target. The Advantage / Disadvantage Die is - as werecorpse pointed out - a way to keep the target numbers lower than with relying solely on flat bonusses to be added.

SW uses for wildcards always the "roll 2 take the best" approach.

I cannot see where duplicating a Skill die (or several - in rapid attack with a gun we are talking about SIX skill dice) and taking the higher or lower from the double skill die and the wild die does promote any kind of positive effect regarding SW gameplay. - The evaluation of the roll takes longer, you roll more dice, it becomes less clear how to apply rules like "1, regardless of wild die" etc.

You will have to gauge the effect of doubling skill dice at different competency levels - d4 throughout to d12(+X). D&D Next only uses ONE die type - the d20. That way the effect of a decision to award an advantage die or a disadvantage die are easily calculated even during the game. But in SW a simple award of a double skill die is in its effect strongly dependent on the die size. - A double d4 might explode more often, but also shows a 1 on the skill die more often! A double d12 is quite a strong bonus, a double d6 less so - en par with the wild die, if the character is an Extra with d6 skill die.

Doubling of skill dice for advantages makes Extras to "temporary wild cards" or even better on an advantage.

Disadvantages are quite difficult to gauge: the two d20 in D&D Next do NOT explode! Even on a Disadvantage regarding a skill of d4, both d4 could possibly explode through the roof. Even more so, as the d4 is more prone to explode than a d12. - So how do you estimate exactly HOW MUCH of a disadvantage you apply to a roll of a skill of d4, or d6, or ... or d12? - In D&D Next this is not a problem at all, because all rolls use only one die type.



I would not recommend introducing such a totally different rules enviroment requiring rules mechanic into SW.

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Re: D&D Next's advantage/disadvantage mechanism

#8 Postby Aki » Sat Mar 25, 2017 3:46 pm

Arise for the grave old thread.

Three years have passed and I've had plenty of time to work with advantage/disadvantage in 5e. I think it will work in Savage Worlds, with some tweaking.

For non wildcards advantage / disadvantage works the same way as in d20 - the skill die is rolled twice & the highest is taken for advantage, and the lowest for disadvantage. For wildcards: When a wildcard has advantage the wild die changes to their skill die as long as that die is a d6 or higher. So a wildcard with advantage using a d12 skill rolls a d12 instead of a d6 for their wildcard die. When a wildcard is at a disadvantage they lose the wild die for that roll - reason - the disadvantage cancels the inherent advantage of being a wildcard. Thoughts?

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Re: D&D Next's advantage/disadvantage mechanism

#9 Postby DoctorBoson » Sat Mar 25, 2017 6:57 pm

Aki wrote:For non wildcards advantage / disadvantage works the same way as in d20 - the skill die is rolled twice & the highest is taken for advantage, and the lowest for disadvantage. For wildcards: When a wildcard has advantage the wild die changes to their skill die as long as that die is a d6 or higher. So a wildcard with advantage using a d12 skill rolls a d12 instead of a d6 for their wildcard die. When a wildcard is at a disadvantage they lose the wild die for that roll - reason - the disadvantage cancels the inherent advantage of being a wildcard. Thoughts?

The distinction between Wild Cards and Extras seems a bit odd, and changing what the Wild Die is arbitrarily is odd, especially in context with the Legendary Edge that lets you raise the Wild Die to a d10. Plus, what happens if you have Advantage on an Unskilled roll?

The easy way to do it is Advantage = roll an extra Wild Die, still keep the highest, Disadvantage = lose the Wild Die (extras get a Wild Die and take the lowest instead). Bonus is that all you need for Advantage (or Disadvantage for Extras) is an extra d6, which are a dime a dozen. Additional bonus is that Extras with Disadvantage now have a Wild Die and can suffer snake eyes if you're running with the Critical Failure setting rule.

EDIT: Funnily enough, calculations are showing me that Advantage/Disadvantage done in this manner is roughly equal to a +/–1 modifier in almost all cases. Aki's proposed value changes nothing for a character with d6 or lower in a skill, but a d10 skill changes Advantage/Disadvantage to be roughly equivalent to +2/–1, while an Extra with a d6 has an A/D equivalent of +/-1.5, while a d10 has a +2/–2. Food for thought.
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Re: D&D Next's advantage/disadvantage mechanism

#10 Postby ValhallaGH » Sat Mar 25, 2017 8:35 pm

DoctorBoson wrote: Additional bonus is that Extras with Disadvantage now have a Wild Die and can suffer snake eyes if you're running with the Critical Failure setting rule.

Note that Critical Failures are a normal part of the Core Rules. The setting rule just means that a Benny can not be spent to reroll that Trait roll.

DoctorBoson wrote:EDIT: Funnily enough, calculations are showing me that Advantage/Disadvantage done in this manner is roughly equal to a +/–1 modifier in almost all cases. Aki's proposed value changes nothing for a character with d6 or lower in a skill, but a d10 skill changes Advantage/Disadvantage to be roughly equivalent to +2/–1, while an Extra with a d6 has an A/D equivalent of +/-1.5, while a d10 has a +2/–2. Food for thought.

The one real benefit of the Additional Wild Die approach is that it dramatically alters the chances of Critical Failure. Wild Cards with Advantage are vastly less likely to get a Critical Failure (have to roll 1 on the Trait die and on both Wild Dice), while those with Disadvantage are much more likely to get a Critical Failure (have to roll 1 on the Trait die and just one of the Wild Dice). Extras with Advantage / Disadvantage get a chance of Critical Failure, which is the price they pay for dramatically improved average results and success rates.
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Re: D&D Next's advantage/disadvantage mechanism

#11 Postby DoctorBoson » Sat Mar 25, 2017 9:00 pm

ValhallaGH wrote:
DoctorBoson wrote: Additional bonus is that Extras with Disadvantage now have a Wild Die and can suffer snake eyes if you're running with the Critical Failure setting rule.

Note that Critical Failures are a normal part of the Core Rules. The setting rule just means that a Benny can not be spent to reroll that Trait roll.

I've never seen them mentioned outside of the Setting Rule; where is it stated? I know some situations have the "1 on the Skill die" effect, but I've never seen "critical failure" mentioned.
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Re: D&D Next's advantage/disadvantage mechanism

#12 Postby ValhallaGH » Sat Mar 25, 2017 10:06 pm

Core rules, Chapter 3: The Game Rules, page 63, under The Wild Die.
Extras roll a single die as described above. But Wild Cards
roll an extra d6 and take the highest of their normal die or the
“Wild Die” when making skill or attribute rolls. Wild Dice are
rolled just like the Trait die, and can Ace as well (see above).
►►Critical Failure: The downside is that snake-eyes (double
1s) on one of these rolls is a critical failure. The GM gets to
make up something rotten to happen to your character. That’s
the price Fate charges for making someone a hero.
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Re: D&D Next's advantage/disadvantage mechanism

#13 Postby DoctorBoson » Sat Mar 25, 2017 11:21 pm

I've read this book like a dozen times and I'd never realized that Critical Failure wasn't just part of that Setting Rule. Thank you!
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