Using SPC2 Combined Attack rules for a bunch of Extras?

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SteelDraco
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Using SPC2 Combined Attack rules for a bunch of Extras?

#1 Postby SteelDraco » Mon Feb 29, 2016 2:13 pm

Has anyone put any thought into adapting the Combined Attack rules from SPC2 into some way of doing volley fire from a number of troops? I have a PC with the Followers Edge, and he expressed an interest in some kind of combined attack so it's quicker to resolve. That rule seems like the way to go, but it's written up based on power ranks, which doesn't adapt well to "six guys shoot at one big thing". I could base it on the power of the gun they're using, I suppose, so a handgun might give +1, a rifle +2, and a heavy weapon +3.

The other quibble I have is that it still requires a roll from each character, which is something I would prefer to avoid. Do you think it would be reasonably balanced if I just had something like...

Combined Attack
Requirements: Command, Spirit d8+, Seasoned
Your hero is adept at directing troops to combine their attacks into one deadly volley. You and any number of allies all act on the slowest Action Card of the group. Each participant must be able to see and attack the target in order to participate in a combined attack. Choose one attacker as the lead; to affect a target with Heavy Armor, the lead character must inflict Heavy Weapon damage. Each supporting attacker adds from +1 (for a light weapon like a pistol) to +3 (for a large weapon like a minigun) to the lead attacker's damage roll, if successful.

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Jounichi
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Re: Using SPC2 Combined Attack rules for a bunch of Extras?

#2 Postby Jounichi » Mon Feb 29, 2016 2:49 pm

I think that's the wrong way to go. I've used the combination attack rule a few times, and it's not as smooth as it could be. For example, one of my players has the enhanced damage modifier for attack, ranged, so do I count that as two additional ranks or a raise on the roll? A pistol's 2d6 would be +1, but a shotguns can fire either 3d6 or 2d10. Both average around 12 damage, so those might be +2, but a rifle dealing 2d8 is going to fall (unfortunately) somewhere in the middle. And let's not forget about the weapons capable of 2d6-1, 2d6+1, or 2d8+1 damage. Could a player optimize his followers with statistically inferior weapons capable of higher modifiers?

Rolling for a group of Extras isn't a big deal. They don't get any Wild Dice, so it's just a pool of "X" Shooting dice to see which ones hit. Wound modifiers aren't an issue, either, so the only time I can see a problem arising is if they somehow have different rolls to make. Maybe it's equipment or Edges granting modifiers. Maybe they're targeting different people behind different degrees of cover. Maybe they have different Shooting dice. I don't know, but managing a handful of Extras isn't difficult.

Still, if he want's "volley fire," why not create a Leadership Edge which grants Extras under his command a gang-up bonus to hit a target at short range? Heck, maybe he doesn't even need a special Edge. They could all just concentrate fire and you whip out the suppressive fire rules for a small burst template.
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"Wise man once say, 'forgiveness is divine, but never pay full price for late pizza.'" -Michelangelo

SteelDraco
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Re: Using SPC2 Combined Attack rules for a bunch of Extras?

#3 Postby SteelDraco » Mon Feb 29, 2016 4:26 pm

Jounichi wrote:I think that's the wrong way to go. I've used the combination attack rule a few times, and it's not as smooth as it could be. For example, one of my players has the enhanced damage modifier for attack, ranged, so do I count that as two additional ranks or a raise on the roll? A pistol's 2d6 would be +1, but a shotguns can fire either 3d6 or 2d10. Both average around 12 damage, so those might be +2, but a rifle dealing 2d8 is going to fall (unfortunately) somewhere in the middle. And let's not forget about the weapons capable of 2d6-1, 2d6+1, or 2d8+1 damage. Could a player optimize his followers with statistically inferior weapons capable of higher modifiers?

Yeah, that's the kind of questions I was wondering about too. Honestly I'm fine with just +1/+2/+3 based on my discretion, I mostly wanted to see if anyone had played around with the rules for this purpose. I haven't used the Combined Attack rules at all, so I wasn't sure how well they played out in actual play.

Rolling for a group of Extras isn't a big deal. They don't get any Wild Dice, so it's just a pool of "X" Shooting dice to see which ones hit. Wound modifiers aren't an issue, either, so the only time I can see a problem arising is if they somehow have different rolls to make. Maybe it's equipment or Edges granting modifiers. Maybe they're targeting different people behind different degrees of cover. Maybe they have different Shooting dice. I don't know, but managing a handful of Extras isn't difficult.

The trouble he's having is mostly on him; he's had these extras for a while and they've all got an advance or two, and he's given them different equipment, so things are a bit more complicated than they were when I gave him three Extras with the same stats. Still, he has expressed an interest in having it resolve faster, so I was trying to accommodate that request.

Still, if he want's "volley fire," why not create a Leadership Edge which grants Extras under his command a gang-up bonus to hit a target at short range? Heck, maybe he doesn't even need a special Edge. They could all just concentrate fire and you whip out the suppressive fire rules for a small burst template.

That was his other suggestion (group suppressive fire), and I agree that could solve it as well.

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Re: Using SPC2 Combined Attack rules for a bunch of Extras?

#4 Postby UmbraLux » Mon Feb 29, 2016 5:34 pm

SteelDraco wrote:Has anyone put any thought into adapting the Combined Attack rules from SPC2 into some way of doing volley fire from a number of troops?
Haven't tried that, what I have done is creating groups of enemies as "swarms" rather than individuals. Take an individual, give them +X to attack and +Y to damage, add the parry bonus from the Swarm ability, and decide whether or not one wound will take them out or, in some cases, simply reduce hit and damage bonuses until the whole group is down. It keeps things simple.

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Re: Using SPC2 Combined Attack rules for a bunch of Extras?

#5 Postby Ryche » Mon Feb 29, 2016 6:59 pm

Hellfrost has something similar as a Leadership Edge. It allows multiple archers to attack the same target. I don't have my books in front of me at the moment to know the details but might be a good baseline.

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Re: Using SPC2 Combined Attack rules for a bunch of Extras?

#6 Postby Jounichi » Mon Feb 29, 2016 7:50 pm

Ryche wrote:Hellfrost has something similar as a Leadership Edge. It allows multiple archers to attack the same target. I don't have my books in front of me at the moment to know the details but might be a good baseline.

Hellfrost is high fantasy, and Concentrated Firepower is specifically for taking down high-Toughness critters like dragons. It's not a terrible idea for taking down frost giants with bows and spears, but once you start adding rifles, shotguns, and grenade launchers (and everyone has something different) it might do more harm than good.

Heck, we don't even know the setting and equipment available to the Extras. All we know is they've hit Legendary.
"Rush not in to fights. Long is the war. Only by surviving it, will you prevail." -Yoda

"Wise man once say, 'forgiveness is divine, but never pay full price for late pizza.'" -Michelangelo

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Re: Using SPC2 Combined Attack rules for a bunch of Extras?

#7 Postby SteelDraco » Mon Feb 29, 2016 8:03 pm

The setting is Iron Kingdoms, so the extras in question do have guns (roughly 1800s era firearms). They're not Legendary; I used the Born a Hero setting rule. He wanted to play a leader-type (disgraced sergeant with a couple of people from his former squad), and so the Followers Edge made sense to start.

I don't own Hellfrost so sadly I'm not familiar with Concentrated Firepower.

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Re: Using SPC2 Combined Attack rules for a bunch of Extras?

#8 Postby Jounichi » Mon Feb 29, 2016 8:24 pm

I've played Iron Kingdoms; both 3.5 and a homebrew someone did for Savage Worlds. Firearms are pretty limited, so what do they have besides rifles?
"Rush not in to fights. Long is the war. Only by surviving it, will you prevail." -Yoda

"Wise man once say, 'forgiveness is divine, but never pay full price for late pizza.'" -Michelangelo

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Re: Using SPC2 Combined Attack rules for a bunch of Extras?

#9 Postby SteelDraco » Mon Feb 29, 2016 8:36 pm

A hand cannon (large pistol), a couple of blunderbusses, and a rifle. One of them has a ripper cannon (which is a ridiculous chainsaw/grenade launcher thing) but is rarely used as they only have a few shots for it.

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Re: Using SPC2 Combined Attack rules for a bunch of Extras?

#10 Postby Jounichi » Mon Feb 29, 2016 9:26 pm

SteelDraco wrote:A hand cannon (large pistol), a couple of blunderbusses, and a rifle. One of them has a ripper cannon (which is a ridiculous chainsaw/grenade launcher thing) but is rarely used as they only have a few shots for it.

An odd mix. Blunderbusses are short range and one-and-done, and I don't recall ripper cannons at all. Is it a gobber creation?
"Rush not in to fights. Long is the war. Only by surviving it, will you prevail." -Yoda

"Wise man once say, 'forgiveness is divine, but never pay full price for late pizza.'" -Michelangelo

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Re: Using SPC2 Combined Attack rules for a bunch of Extras?

#11 Postby SteelDraco » Mon Feb 29, 2016 10:09 pm

Jounichi wrote:An odd mix. Blunderbusses are short range and one-and-done, and I don't recall ripper cannons at all. Is it a gobber creation?

It's a Khadoran support weapon - a chainsaw with an underslung grenade launcher.

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Re: Using SPC2 Combined Attack rules for a bunch of Extras?

#12 Postby Jounichi » Tue Mar 01, 2016 11:37 am

Ah, a bombardier cannon. I hope he has steam armor. That sucker weighs a ton.
"Rush not in to fights. Long is the war. Only by surviving it, will you prevail." -Yoda

"Wise man once say, 'forgiveness is divine, but never pay full price for late pizza.'" -Michelangelo


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