Savage Run

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Lighthouse
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Savage Run

#1 Postby Lighthouse » Fri Sep 09, 2016 11:26 am

I am working on my own Savage Shadowrun conversion. I am using someone else conversion as a template and updating it to 5E. With the new shaken rules all stun spells are underwhelming. What about this: stun and havoc/pummel would roll damage like bolt and compare to toughness then instead of wounds on a raise they take a fatigue level. You could soak with a benny as usual. Thoughts?

Thrallking
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Re: Savage Run

#2 Postby Thrallking » Fri Sep 09, 2016 1:05 pm

That sounds good but comparing it to class Toughness seems wrong. Maybe use Spirit/2 instead, as a sort of mental fortitude? By the way, would love to see your work. Trying to run Shadow run now but the system is so ... Wonky.
"If his armor is so good, why is he dead?"

SteelDraco
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Re: Savage Run

#3 Postby SteelDraco » Fri Sep 09, 2016 1:47 pm

"Bumps and Bruises" certainly makes sense for a more physical stun effect, if that's the direction you want to go. I've thought about stun powers imposing a -2 penalty on rolls to remove Shaken for a short duration, as I do think they've lost a lot of their usefulness with the new Shaken rules.

Lighthouse
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Re: Savage Run

#4 Postby Lighthouse » Fri Sep 09, 2016 3:33 pm

Here is the link:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/13i6 ... sp=sharing

It's in its early stages.

Deskepticon
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Re: Savage Run

#5 Postby Deskepticon » Sat Sep 10, 2016 7:41 pm

We just came up with a new condition called "Staggered" that uses the old Shaken rules. It's a quick and dirty fix and you don't need to reword or alter the Powers.

ValhallaGH
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Re: Savage Run

#6 Postby ValhallaGH » Sat Sep 10, 2016 10:04 pm

Lighthouse wrote:With the new shaken rules all stun spells are underwhelming.

Why not use the rules for Stun weapons from the SFC? Target rolls Vigor or is Incapacitated (Vigor each round to become just Shaken; fully recover with a Raise).
"Got a problem? I've got the solution: Rocket Launcher."
"Not against a Servitor."
"... We're all gonna die."

Lighthouse
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Re: Savage Run

#7 Postby Lighthouse » Mon Sep 12, 2016 3:15 pm

I hadn't read that. Anyone play tested it that way?

Deskepticon
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Re: Savage Run

#8 Postby Deskepticon » Mon Sep 12, 2016 4:34 pm

ValhallaGH wrote:
Lighthouse wrote:With the new shaken rules all stun spells are underwhelming.

Why not use the rules for Stun weapons from the SFC? Target rolls Vigor or is Incapacitated (Vigor each round to become just Shaken; fully recover with a Raise).

The issue I see with this is that Shaken characters can still move and reactively defend themselves. Incap characters are helpless.

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Re: Savage Run

#9 Postby ValhallaGH » Mon Sep 12, 2016 5:54 pm

Stun Weapon Mechanic wrote:Then the victim must make a Vigor roll or fall prone and Incapacitated. At the start of each subsequent action, he makes a Vigor roll to revive. Success means he revives but is Shaken for the round and can recover on the next as usual A raise means he revives instantly and is not Shaken.

It's not right for all spells, but it's very powerful for ones that are as disabling as a Taser.
"Got a problem? I've got the solution: Rocket Launcher."
"Not against a Servitor."
"... We're all gonna die."

Deskepticon
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Re: Savage Run

#10 Postby Deskepticon » Mon Sep 12, 2016 6:59 pm

ValhallaGH wrote:
Stun Weapon Mechanic wrote:Then the victim must make a Vigor roll or fall prone and Incapacitated. At the start of each subsequent action, he makes a Vigor roll to revive. Success means he revives but is Shaken for the round and can recover on the next as usual A raise means he revives instantly and is not Shaken.

It's not right for all spells, but it's very powerful for ones that are as disabling as a Taser.

This is fine in some cases (likely as an electricity Trapping activated on a raise). But for stun, which works in a MBT, this is crazy powerful.

ValhallaGH
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Re: Savage Run

#11 Postby ValhallaGH » Mon Sep 12, 2016 7:21 pm

Man, I think havoc, pummel, and stun are fine as is. I'm just trying to offer options to the OP (who is apparently not playing enough).
"Got a problem? I've got the solution: Rocket Launcher."
"Not against a Servitor."
"... We're all gonna die."

Deskepticon
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Re: Savage Run

#12 Postby Deskepticon » Mon Sep 12, 2016 7:32 pm

ValhallaGH wrote:Man, I think havoc, pummel, and stun are fine as is. I'm just trying to offer options to the OP (who is apparently not playing enough).

My apologies.
I was under the impression these were personal rule choices. They'd be fine if you want to ramp up the danger of stun or pummel but i would probably double the PP costs in that case.
Sorry if my critiques got under your skin. Not my intent.

Lighthouse
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Re: Savage Run

#13 Postby Lighthouse » Tue Sep 20, 2016 10:58 am

I am relatively new to Savage Worlds so I was wondering how spells that just give a shaken result work with the new shaken rules. By my read they seem underwhelming. I get that you can set up another PC to cause a wound but why do that unless you can't wound it any other way? Also what are the value of pummel and Havoc?W hat are the differences between the two they both sound the exact same to me. What am I missing?

ValhallaGH
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Re: Savage Run

#14 Postby ValhallaGH » Tue Sep 20, 2016 11:46 am

Lighthouse wrote:I am relatively new to Savage Worlds so I was wondering how spells that just give a shaken result work with the new shaken rules. By my read they seem underwhelming. I get that you can set up another PC to cause a wound but why do that unless you can't wound it any other way?

They're about as good as they used to be. They increase the possibility of seriously damaging foes, potentially limit the targets to just free actions on their turn(s), and give a non-lethal spell option for combat. Under the new rules a character is roughly three times as likely to act on their turn, but the odds of recovering from Shaken are exactly the same with either version. Also, any bonus smaller than +3 means that a character can fail to recover from Shaken - I've had a surprisingly large (but statistically probable) number of Constructs and Undead fail to recover from Shaken, some of them across multiple rounds.

If you use the powers for a time and conclude that they aren't "good enough" then you probably would have had the same conclusion under the old rules.
Lighthouse wrote:Also what are the value of pummel and Havoc?

They alter positioning and battlefield conditions. They can knock down flying foes, slam victims into walls, and generally rearrange the situation. They're random, but can be a serious lifesaver. The ability to cause Shaken is just a bit of bonus to that effect.
Lighthouse wrote:W hat are the differences between the two they both sound the exact same to me. What am I missing?

The most obvious differences are area of effect and range. Havoc is a Medium Burst Template (or Large for +2 PP) at 2 x Smarts range. Pummel is a Cone Template starting at the caster.
"Got a problem? I've got the solution: Rocket Launcher."
"Not against a Servitor."
"... We're all gonna die."

Deskepticon
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Re: Savage Run

#15 Postby Deskepticon » Tue Sep 20, 2016 7:50 pm

Lighthouse wrote:I get that you can set up another PC to cause a wound but why do that unless you can't wound it any other way?

The answer is in the question, as they say.
A magic user is not likely to have a high fighting or shooting skill, so against opponents with high Toughness they need different options. Powers like confusion completely bypass Toughness to achieve (roughly) the same effect, making it easier for the damage-dealers to score a real Wound in the process.

slamm0
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Re: Savage Run

#16 Postby slamm0 » Sun Mar 26, 2017 3:57 am

Woah I like where you are headed with this. I have been kinda kicking one around to introduce to my group to see we we can kinda get our fill of different games under one system. I will admit I haven't played Savage worlds as of yet but it seems interesting.

Phasma Felis
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Re: Savage Run

#17 Postby Phasma Felis » Sun Mar 26, 2017 9:40 pm

Depends on what you're trying to accomplish. In Savage Worlds, stuff like Stun, Havoc, and Pummel is mainly used to make it easier to finish off your enemies with lethal force, or else push them into deadly hazards. In Shadowrun, IIRC, stun spells and weapons are an effective way of ending a fight on their own, and it's not impossible to do an entire adventure with multiple firefights and no kills. If you're looking for the latter, there's already rules in Savage Worlds for nonlethal damage: "Nonlethal damage causes wounds as usual, but if a character is rendered Incapacitated he’s knocked out for 1d6 hours instead." In that case, instead of the Stun power you'd use Blast/Burst/Bolt with a "nonlethal" trapping.

For Havoc and Pummel, I don't recall if there are direct analogues in Shadowrun, but there's probably something like a "gust of wind" spell at least that you'd model with Pummel. I guess you could have it do some modest amount of nonlethal damage (2d4? 2d6?) if a tossed enemy hits a solid object.

Phasma Felis
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Re: Savage Run

#18 Postby Phasma Felis » Sun Mar 26, 2017 10:32 pm

ValhallaGH wrote:Why not use the rules for Stun weapons from the SFC? Target rolls Vigor or is Incapacitated (Vigor each round to become just Shaken; fully recover with a Raise).

It's not a bad rule. Still, in most settings, I'm a bit leery of mechanics that make nonlethal weapons a more effective way of ending a fight quickly than lethal ones. Whatever justification you have for PCs being able to keep fighting after multiple battleaxe strikes or point-blank shotgun blasts should also apply to tasers.

IIRC that was a significant problem in Shadowrun, at least in 3E. A combat squirtgun loaded with contact knockout poison could somehow drop most enemies faster than an assault rifle. o_O So maybe it's actually thematic? :D

ValhallaGH
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Re: Savage Run

#19 Postby ValhallaGH » Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:06 am

Phasma Felis wrote:
ValhallaGH wrote:Why not use the rules for Stun weapons from the SFC? Target rolls Vigor or is Incapacitated (Vigor each round to become just Shaken; fully recover with a Raise).

It's not a bad rule. Still, in most settings, I'm a bit leery of mechanics that make nonlethal weapons a more effective way of ending a fight quickly than lethal ones.

So am I. Which is why I'd never use that rule. But, as I said up-thread, sometimes the solution someone else is looking for is something that I find distasteful.
"Got a problem? I've got the solution: Rocket Launcher."
"Not against a Servitor."
"... We're all gonna die."


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