Angels In Deadlands Noir

All discussions about the new Noir setting for Deadlands and Savage Worlds. It's 1935 and the only thing that isn't in short supply is trouble.

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Snate56
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#41 Postby Snate56 » Wed Dec 10, 2014 5:08 am

Well well, my my.... hard to follow that one!

Ok, here's a raising of the fear level opportunity.

Your Harrowed likes to go "tie one on" at the end of the day. The party thinks he's just a little too familiar with alcohol but really, he's pickling himself in fine Harrowed tradition.
Finally alone and perhaps getting ready to turn in, the manatou makes his move and takes over...
After a while stories start to spread about whole families disappearing from nearby homesteads....

Once in a while, your Harrowed wakes up in an odd location. :twisted:


SteveN
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Re: Hoping to clear everything up in one post...apologies...

#42 Postby raikenclw » Wed Dec 10, 2014 9:44 am

velikch wrote:raikenclw, by this time (that I'm now posting this) I've spent over 6 hours attempting to write (rewrite, re-rewrite, re-re-rewrite, etc.) this response - I mention this because I want you to understand the extreme difficulty in what you've asked me (and everyone else here) to do. Note, this is not a criticism, but rather (hopefully) the answer you've been looking for all along because honestly I think this is the best one you can be given and that I hope you fully appreciate the answer and the information I'm providing you with.


Thank you very much for this long and obviously very well-thought-out reply.

I have written such posts before myself for other games, in a similar effort to give a player the knowledge they actually need, rather than what they think they need . . . because they didn't have enough knowledge to begin with to realize what they actually needed. So I know how much effort you went to,here.

The source of my confusion and frustration was that I actually did know that manituos actings subtly. But I was told during the course of this thread that subtle effects could not raise the overall Fear Level.

So essentially, manitous are working to raise the Fear Level one person at a time. Instead of a Big Flashy Something that makes everyone fearful and which can be openly opposed and defeated - thus lowering the Fear Level again - they work to create lots of little bits of fear, which slowly raise fear until the Level increases . . . rather like tiny termites, slowly building massive termite mounds (which are tough enough that they can make tracked vehicles throw off their threads).

And like termites, these little bits of fear are much harder to fight than those Big Flashy Somethings.
Han Solo, Wild Card: "Uh . . ." <BLAMM! Comm fizzles and dies> "Boring conversation, anyway. LUKE, WE'RE GONNA HAVE COMPANY!"

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Re: Hoping to clear everything up in one post...apologies...

#43 Postby raikenclw » Wed Dec 10, 2014 9:48 am

velikch wrote:3. Your Manitou is not the thing that's giving your Houngan/Mambo (those are the words for Voodoo Priests, depending on gender, M/F respectively) their spellpowers - as such, they have to pray to something NOT their Manitou to gain those spells. If you read the "Shrine" entry under the Special Rules for Voodoo (p. 40), you'll notice that you run into a problem. If your character really, truly believes their Manitou to be a Loa, if they ever do their praying to the Manitou they will be denied all spellpower the next day.


The GM and I have already discussed that.

Emile isn't in any danger of praying to his manitou, because he always prays to the loas by their Names.

Since the manitou does not carry that Name, the prayer goes where it's intended to go, rather than to the manitou.
Han Solo, Wild Card: "Uh . . ." <BLAMM! Comm fizzles and dies> "Boring conversation, anyway. LUKE, WE'RE GONNA HAVE COMPANY!"

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El Diablo
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Re: Hoping to clear everything up in one post...apologies...

#44 Postby El Diablo » Thu Dec 11, 2014 6:15 pm

raikenclw wrote:
velikch wrote:raikenclw, by this time (that I'm now posting this) I've spent over 6 hours attempting to write (rewrite, re-rewrite, re-re-rewrite, etc.) this response - I mention this because I want you to understand the extreme difficulty in what you've asked me (and everyone else here) to do. Note, this is not a criticism, but rather (hopefully) the answer you've been looking for all along because honestly I think this is the best one you can be given and that I hope you fully appreciate the answer and the information I'm providing you with.


Thank you very much for this long and obviously very well-thought-out reply.

I have written such posts before myself for other games, in a similar effort to give a player the knowledge they actually need, rather than what they think they need . . . because they didn't have enough knowledge to begin with to realize what they actually needed. So I know how much effort you went to,here.

The source of my confusion and frustration was that I actually did know that manituos actings subtly. But I was told during the course of this thread that subtle effects could not raise the overall Fear Level.

So essentially, manitous are working to raise the Fear Level one person at a time. Instead of a Big Flashy Something that makes everyone fearful and which can be openly opposed and defeated - thus lowering the Fear Level again - they work to create lots of little bits of fear, which slowly raise fear until the Level increases . . . rather like tiny termites, slowly building massive termite mounds (which are tough enough that they can make tracked vehicles throw off their threads).

And like termites, these little bits of fear are much harder to fight than those Big Flashy Somethings.


You can also take the problem from the game mechanic point of view (not much romantic but the limit of reality rule the world). The harrowed were created to be playable characters. So, they need to have flaws that are dangerous and frustrating but without giving to much limitation to the PC. That's why they stay in the backseat most of the time and intervene just at critical moment. Also, the fact that the death of the harrowed meen the death of the manitou give a limitation against suicidal acts that would just let the caracter too easily kill when the manitou has dominion.

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Re: Hoping to clear everything up in one post...apologies...

#45 Postby raikenclw » Fri Dec 12, 2014 3:19 am

El Diablo wrote:The harrowed were created to be playable characters. So, they need to have flaws that are dangerous and frustrating but without giving to much limitation to the PC. That's why they stay in the backseat most of the time and intervene just at critical moment. Also, the fact that the death of the harrowed meen the death of the manitou give a limitation against suicidal acts that would just let the caracter too easily kill when the manitou has dominion.


And the same limitations still work if the PC is Harrowed by a Fallen angel (one limited in it's abilities).

A regular (as in "possessing all the powers of legend") angel would be way too powerful for a non-supers game. Maybe even for a supers game, if the PCs were not of Legendary Rank.

A PC who is only rarely capable of doing Spiffy Angelic Stuff is much more in line with his fellow party members. The angel Harrowing him could even still get other party members killed, if that appeared to be in line with its goal of Smiting Evil.
Han Solo, Wild Card: "Uh . . ." <BLAMM! Comm fizzles and dies> "Boring conversation, anyway. LUKE, WE'RE GONNA HAVE COMPANY!"

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Re: Hoping to clear everything up in one post...apologies...

#46 Postby El Diablo » Sat Dec 13, 2014 7:26 am

raikenclw wrote:And the same limitations still work if the PC is Harrowed by a Fallen angel (one limited in it's abilities).

A regular (as in "possessing all the powers of legend") angel would be way too powerful for a non-supers game. Maybe even for a supers game, if the PCs were not of Legendary Rank.

A PC who is only rarely capable of doing Spiffy Angelic Stuff is much more in line with his fellow party members. The angel Harrowing him could even still get other party members killed, if that appeared to be in line with its goal of Smiting Evil.


Do you know the RPG In nomine satanis/Magna Veritas? The way you talk about manitou as fallen angel, I see some similarities with that game. Like deadlands's Harrowed, angel/demon take possesion of dying humans and used much of there personnalities/abilities/competences. But unlike Deadlands, the caracters are not undead and it's an exange of soul so no battle for dominion, you play the angel/demon.

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Re: Hoping to clear everything up in one post...apologies...

#47 Postby raikenclw » Sun Dec 14, 2014 2:57 am

El Diablo wrote:Do you know the RPG In nomine satanis/Magna Veritas?


I've never played that specific edition of the game, which is the original French version. But I own both the initial English translation (titled simply In Nomine), as well as the later GURPS variant. I never used the GURPS variant, but I did briefly run the other one with my old college group.

El Diablo wrote:The way you talk about manitou as fallen angel, . . .


Allow me to hasten to point out (before somebody takes the above too seriously):

What I have been talking about is the possibility of using the existing harrowed/manitou rules to portray relatively low-powered Fallen angels, without needing to change the game mechanics involved.

That is not quite the same thing as saying that manitou are Fallen angels.

El Diablo wrote: I see some similarities with that game. Like deadlands's Harrowed, angel/demon take possesion of dying humans and used much of there personnalities/abilities/competences. But unlike Deadlands, the caracters are not undead and it's an exange of soul so no battle for dominion, you play the angel/demon.


Then the French version is different from the English one in more than just language. In the game I remember, each celestial (angel or demon) who manifests on Earth possesses both a spiritual form and an Earthly one (assuming they retain their celestial natures intact - those can get burned out, leaving them with only their Earthly form). The Earthly form is simply a flesh manikin that manifests around their spirit when it materializes; it has (and had) no existence prior to initial creation and when the celestial leaves the mundane world (to go report Upstairs or some such thing), their mundane form simply vanishes. (Or - at least - that's the way I always played it . . . it's possible I could have been doing it "wrong.")

This is not to say that all mundane forms are equal. Some celestials spend enough time in the mundane world that their Earthly form and it's accompanying circumstances (collectively called their "role") becomes almost as solidly connected to reality as that of a mundane human. Also, the power and utility of a role can vary widely (depending on how heavily it was valued during and since character creation). However, while it's technically possible for a PC to have a role as a powerful individual in mundane society, my players (at least) concentrated on the spiritual side of their characters, leaving their mundane roles at the default minimum level. Their typical roles were identities as beat cops, school teachers or the ever-popular homeless people.

(NOTE: I had one player whose demon took the role of "crazed street preacher.")

Oh! And as far as our discussion here is concerned, In Nomine is TERRIBLY unbalanced. Mundanes - even in large numbers - have zero (0) chance of coming out on top against even a single beginning-level celestial.
Han Solo, Wild Card: "Uh . . ." <BLAMM! Comm fizzles and dies> "Boring conversation, anyway. LUKE, WE'RE GONNA HAVE COMPANY!"


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