[Savage Rifts] The Great D-Bee Race Conversion Thread

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JurneeJakes
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Re: [Savage Rifts] The Great D-Bee Race Conversion Thread

#201 Postby JurneeJakes » Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:11 am

Most of the IF is based heavily on the Combat Borg, as it's the closest to what I was looking for. I still have to include the wrist lasers but wanted to a starting place.

So far, I locked the Physical attributes. Being bots, I'm not sure how they could realistically expand their chassis capabilities and still retain their 'humanoid' visage.

The Heroic/Bloodthirsty hindrance combo was to simulate that Amazon mentality. They will go out of their way to rescue the downtrodden and innocent, but there is no mercy for their enemies. Monsters, Slavers, Coalition, etc. I see Heroic as motivation for WHAT they do, and Bloodthirsty for HOW they do it.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B_YDv ... mxsS1d6ZVk

Updated (March 18)

EDIT: Would a IF specific Edge that allows the Shemarrian to advance all of their attributes be appropriate?
Last edited by JurneeJakes on Sat Mar 18, 2017 11:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: [Savage Rifts] The Great D-Bee Race Conversion Thread

#202 Postby Hendell » Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:33 pm

Blood thirsty characters can still take prisoners, when under direct orders from a superior. To be fair if all Shemarrian have bloodthirsty it will be fairly unlikely that their superior who does not is able to issue orders in the required time window, but it could happen.

That said even if they never took prisoners there is technically no conflict between Bloodthirsty and Heroic, the two hindrances deal with an entirely different set of interactions as anyone who triggers the Heroic hindrance is by definition not someone who would be taken prisoner, but instead rescued and either escorted home or released to find their own way which fits exactly with the Shemarrian behavior set.

The general Shemarrian do not change, they are static by design, but the very act of one becoming a PC is in and of itself a significant change, they should be able to make use of some sort of upgrade mechanism, and if you have not looked into the SFC to find a way to balance the race side of them you should do that. For instance attribute die type increases should be 2 points each, not 1, so you have at least twice as many of them as there should be. Allocating some or all of those points to a custom race should help the problem.
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Re: [Savage Rifts] The Great D-Bee Race Conversion Thread

#203 Postby ValhallaGH » Sat Mar 18, 2017 7:25 am

The Custom D-Bee creation system is a variation on the Sci-Fi Companion custom race rules; the variation adds setting-appropriate options, such as Restricted Path and Obvious D-Bee.
If you make a D-Bee and don't use the Custom D-Bee rules then it's going to be unbalanced.
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Re: [Savage Rifts] The Great D-Bee Race Conversion Thread

#204 Postby JurneeJakes » Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:52 am

Has anyone reverse engineered the Iconic Frameworks from the book yet? I seem to recall discussion about it, but can't find the system myself.

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Re: [Savage Rifts] The Great D-Bee Race Conversion Thread

#205 Postby JurneeJakes » Sat Mar 18, 2017 11:50 am

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B_YDv ... mxsS1d6ZVk

Those were some blatant clerical errors. Updated. Though I'm still uncertain what the Iconic Frameworks equal out to in Bonuses/Complications. I did not change much from the Combat Borg, other than moving a few things around.

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Re: [Savage Rifts] The Great D-Bee Race Conversion Thread

#206 Postby ValhallaGH » Sat Mar 18, 2017 12:16 pm

JurneeJakes wrote:Has anyone reverse engineered the Iconic Frameworks from the book yet? I seem to recall discussion about it, but can't find the system myself.

A few times, by a few people.
My SPC2 breakdowns seem to be well regarded. http://www.pegforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=81&t=49867&start=20#p446880 It was done to facilitate the creation of a balanced Super Hero / Villain Iconic Framework; which eventually happened. http://www.pegforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=455963#p455963
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Re: [Savage Rifts] The Great D-Bee Race Conversion Thread

#207 Postby ValhallaGH » Sat Mar 18, 2017 12:39 pm

JurneeJakes wrote:https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B_YDvhA-dWDHaG5yUmxsS1d6ZVk

Those were some blatant clerical errors. Updated. Though I'm still uncertain what the Iconic Frameworks equal out to in Bonuses/Complications. I did not change much from the Combat Borg, other than moving a few things around.

As a race, they're horribly unbalanced. Kind of interesting, but horribly unbalanced.
As an Iconic Framework, they're just boring. "I'm a big, horrifically tough, warrior with literally nothing obviously interesting about me. Aren't I so Iconic to the setting?"

Mechanically they're mostly fine (though there are still pricing issues, like M.D.C. for free), other than letting their innate armor stack with worn armors. All of them have Toughness 20 (8) M.D.C., plus whatever armor they wear. Get a custom Samson and they're sitting on 35 (20). And as a race of D-Bees that can wade through a Dead Boy patrol without real concern (most CS troops only have Vibro-Knives and frag grenades to deal Mega Damage, neither of which averages the 24 damage needed to stop a single Shemarrian), the Coalition would love to nuke them all.
The locked physical Attributes is a weird choice. Combat Cyborgs don't have that limitation, but Shemarrians do despite having similar bodies. It's a strange choice, that encourages character development along the mental paths, for a warrior that doesn't require mental ability to be effective. Not a bad choice, but certainly a strange one.

Oh, any Iconic Framework that is also a race needs to list "don't choose a race" among the Complications. Look at how the Dragon does it.

I would never play this because it doesn't spark my imagination. If a player wanted to play it then we'd be discussing how soon the "she's a robot!?" reveal would happen. Because that's about the only interesting thing in the Iconic Framework.
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Re: [Savage Rifts] The Great D-Bee Race Conversion Thread

#208 Postby JurneeJakes » Sat Mar 18, 2017 2:31 pm

So it would seem Iconic Frameworks range from 25 to 95 some odd positive points, so balance doesn't really seem to be an issue.

Whether it's interesting or not is up to individual players.

The locked physical attributes are due to the fact that they appear to be living creatures, and unlike a Cyborg, can't just keep tacking on extra pieces without a drastic change in design specifications, and can't naturally increase such stats by just working out. This would encourage more skill development, Edges, and the development of their Neural Intelligence by way of Mental Attributes.

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Re: [Savage Rifts] The Great D-Bee Race Conversion Thread

#209 Postby Hendell » Sat Mar 18, 2017 2:36 pm

The real problem with what you are trying to do with the Shemarrians is that they are not a custom IF, they are really just a custom race robot with a MARS IF, no need to make the process overly complex. The question of needing to make use of the SFC for more race customization options is valid, and if it is directly compatible and balanced with the Rifts version, some features seem to match others do not.

I would suggest that if you do use the two systems make every attempt to do so in stages. Start with the SFC and make sure you have exactly a 0 total in points balancing positive with negative, then move on to the Rifts options and build up to the +2 total value of a race and you should be fine. Then just top it off with MARS IF.

As for attribute upgrades why bother locking them? Some value in attributes is simply learning to better utilize what you already have, some physical upgrades can be had, and perhaps that comes with a cosmetic cost or even a required RP component to the campaign but the whole point behind making the robot a PC is that it can learn and grow beyond its normal scope, otherwise its just another NPC and can be given a single stat block.
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Re: [Savage Rifts] The Great D-Bee Race Conversion Thread

#210 Postby JurneeJakes » Sat Mar 18, 2017 3:37 pm

To be honest, my first attempt was as a race built as a basic Construct (8) with the Android (2) Modification built in, but this was disregarded as 'too simple' and required 'a custom framework similar to the Dragon Hatchling'.

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Re: [Savage Rifts] The Great D-Bee Race Conversion Thread

#211 Postby ValhallaGH » Sat Mar 18, 2017 4:06 pm

JurneeJakes wrote:So it would seem Iconic Frameworks range from 25 to 95 some odd positive points, so balance doesn't really seem to be an issue.

Actually, balance is a real issue. The designers were simply aware enough, and did enough play testing, to get the in-play balance correct (mostly; Mind Melters are a bit weak) even if the SPC balance is way off.
If a new Iconic Framework has about 50 SPC Power Points of abilities, and the various abilities don't combine to be exceptionally effective, then it is probably fine. If it has a lot more, or less, than 50 then there are some serious concerns - some of which may be obvious, others may only show up in play, so testing is important.

Your Shemarrian has a few obvious balance problems.
Like the fact that they can fight each other all day with minimal odds of doing meaningful damage to each other (d12+d6 averages 11.3 damage, 15.5 on a Raise; versus Toughness 20 (8) that is meaningless). Too weak.
Like the fact that they can put on a high-end body armor (C&S Crusader) and be tougher than many armored vehicles (Toughness 30 (16), M.D.C.). Too strong.
Like the fact that there is no obvious build direction for the character, but numerous build limitations. Conceptually limiting.

There are probably some other issues, but those will require playing at a table to identify.

JurneeJakes wrote:Whether it's interesting or not is up to individual players.

Maybe. But what's the hook?
The Juicer hook: Live fast, fight hard, have a meaningful death.
The Crazy hook: Can you keep enough sanity to use your super powers in a way that matters?
The Combat Cyborg hook: You've traded meat for metal, becoming a high-tech war machine; what do you do with that power?
The Shemarrian hook: You're a robot! A sexy, 7' tall, alien lady robot!
The Glitter Boy hook: You're the latest in a long line of defenders and guardians, using the ancient and powerful tools passed to you, protecting the innocent people of the world from monsters and villains.
The Ley Line Walker hook: Be a Wizard of great power, or a minor god near a Ley Line.
The Mystic hook: A supremely devout champion of the faith, taking it into the world to make things better.
The Burster hook: Kill it with fire.
The Cyber-Knight hook: High-tech paladins, blended with Jedi, journey across the land slaying evil.
The Flame Wind Hatchling hook: Be a baby dragon! Learn about the world, and start growing into the adult dragon you want to be.
Compared to the others, Shemarrian seems to have a weak hook - it's about what you are, not what you can do. The only unique opportunity it gives is to be a Shemarrian - everything else is something that can be done as well or better by any other character. Heck, you can be a seven foot tall sexy alien-lady robot by being a custom D-Bee.

JurneeJakes wrote:The locked physical attributes are due to the fact that they appear to be living creatures, and unlike a Cyborg, can't just keep tacking on extra pieces without a drastic change in design specifications, and can't naturally increase such stats by just working out.

'Borgs can increase their physical stats infinitely, without ever taking another bionic implant. Spending normal advances to increase Agility, Strength, and Vigor with no upper limits.
Which is why I called the locked Attributes a weird choice. It's violating existing precedent for little discernible reason.
JurneeJakes wrote:This would encourage more skill development, Edges, and the development of their Neural Intelligence by way of Mental Attributes.

Yeah, I noted that. I also noted that it's a weird choice for what's essentially a super-soldier Framework.

For example, I could build a race of amazonian lady robots with the D-Bee rules.
Disguised Robot Ladies: (+19 -17 = +2)
Physical Ideal: Increase Agility, Strength, and Vigor, and their maximums, by +1 die type. (+6)
Pretty: +1 Charisma. (+1)
Construct: They receive +2 to recover from being Shaken, ignore one level of wound modifiers, don’t breathe, and are immune to disease and poison. They cannot heal naturally but must be Repaired (and ignore the “Golden Hour”). (+8)
Real Big: Seven to eight feet tall, with a fit build. Size +1. (+1)
Quality Construction: Their body is not subject to Technical Difficulties. (+1)
Self Repair System: May make a Natural Healing roll each day. (+2)
Cyber Resistant: High quality alien construction makes them incompatible with cybernetics. They cannot take any Iconic Framework which includes cybernetics (including the bio-comp system of a Juicer). (-1)
Distinctive D-Bee: Obviously inhuman, they suffer -4 Charisma when dealing with Coalition personnel, and hostility often leads to violence with the slightest provocation. (-2)
Non-Standard Physiology: Armor must be custom-designed and fitted, at least doubling purchase and repair costs. Operating a vehicle not refitted for the species is done at a −2 for all Trait checks, including firing vehicular weapons. Glitter Boy armor (and the Iconic Framework) is not an option for this race. (-1)
Cultural Programming: Built to follow a cultural ideal, all Disguised Robot Ladies have the Arrogant, Bloodthirsty, Clueless, Overconfident, and Heroic Hindrances. (-10)
Restricted Path: Unable to channel PPE or ISP, they cannot take Arcane Background or any Iconic Framework that provides an Arcane Background. (-2)
Racial Enemy: Splugorth and all their minions, including Altara. They suffer –4 Charisma when dealing with each other, and may become hostile with little provocation. (-1)
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Re: [Savage Rifts] The Great D-Bee Race Conversion Thread

#212 Postby JurneeJakes » Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:51 pm

Well that was a much better review of where the problems rise and where it needs work. Thank you. I'll work on it.

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Re: [Savage Rifts] The Great D-Bee Race Conversion Thread

#213 Postby Azuresun » Sun Mar 19, 2017 11:17 am

I took a crack at converting the other Coalition-created mutant animals from Lone Star (apes, cats, rats and bears). Hope this is useful for someone, and feedback would be welcome. :)

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1z6S ... sp=sharing

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Re: [Savage Rifts] The Great D-Bee Race Conversion Thread

#214 Postby ValhallaGH » Sun Mar 19, 2017 12:46 pm

Azuresun wrote:I took a crack at converting the other Coalition-created mutant animals from Lone Star (apes, cats, rats and bears). Hope this is useful for someone, and feedback would be welcome. :)

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1z6S ... sp=sharing

Interesting.
After a quick look, the balance seems off. Make sure you use the Custom D-Bee creation rules in the Tomorrow Legion Player's Guide.
For example, the Ape seems to be a +4 race (+9 benefits, only -5 drawbacks); also, the re-named Bad Reputation (Obvious Nonhuman) is listed as a Major drawback, which it is not. Were you confusing it with the Distinctive D-Bee drawback? Dog Boys use Outsider for a similar concept; in fact, taking more of the Dog Boy drawbacks is probably a good starting point for balance.

Good start, though.
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Re: [Savage Rifts] The Great D-Bee Race Conversion Thread

#215 Postby Erolat » Sun Mar 19, 2017 1:08 pm

ValhallaGH wrote:Maybe. But what's the hook?
The Juicer hook: Live fast, fight hard, have a meaningful death.
The Crazy hook: Can you keep enough sanity to use your super powers in a way that matters?
The Combat Cyborg hook: You've traded meat for metal, becoming a high-tech war machine; what do you do with that power?
The Shemarrian hook: You're a robot! A sexy, 7' tall, alien lady robot!
The Glitter Boy hook: You're the latest in a long line of defenders and guardians, using the ancient and powerful tools passed to you, protecting the innocent people of the world from monsters and villains.
The Ley Line Walker hook: Be a Wizard of great power, or a minor god near a Ley Line.
The Mystic hook: A supremely devout champion of the faith, taking it into the world to make things better.
The Burster hook: Kill it with fire.
The Cyber-Knight hook: High-tech paladins, blended with Jedi, journey across the land slaying evil.
The Flame Wind Hatchling hook: Be a baby dragon! Learn about the world, and start growing into the adult dragon you want to be.

What?!?! No love for the Techno-Wizard?! I see how you are.

I think the main reason I would be interested in playing as a Shemarrian would be for the role-play opportunities. Unfortunately, the setting does require a bit more combat and without the ability to increase physical stats by the time you reach veteran you could easily be behind the power curve on survival stats.

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Re: [Savage Rifts] The Great D-Bee Race Conversion Thread

#216 Postby ValhallaGH » Sun Mar 19, 2017 1:37 pm

Erolat wrote:What?!?! No love for the Techno-Wizard?! I see how you are.
:lol: A man's got to sleep some time.
I'm wondering why you aren't advocating for M.A.R.S. and Mind Melter, too. :P

Erolat wrote:I think the main reason I would be interested in playing as a Shemarrian would be for the role-play opportunities.

Yeah, the hook for JurneeJakes' proposed Framework is being a secretive robot, disguised as a sexy female alien.
That can be enough of a hook, but the other Frameworks all hook off of what you do rather than what you are. Which is a significant design direction concern.
A party can be quite successful with up to 40% of the party as combat-light*, so the lack of long-term combat growth isn't a deal breaker. It's a strange deal, but not a terrible one. But the lack of a focus feels like a deal breaker. I suspect that anyone playing the proposed Shemarrian Framework would have a Juicer-like arc: they show up, have a cool personal arc, and then leave the campaign. :( If that was because everyone wanted that, that would be pretty great; but I suspect it would be a result of failing to find something interesting to do with the character.

*I've had groups cross this line, and suddenly a normal combat nearly wiped them. Most of the combat-light players decided that they needed to become combat characters.
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Re: [Savage Rifts] The Great D-Bee Race Conversion Thread

#217 Postby Azuresun » Sun Mar 19, 2017 3:27 pm

ValhallaGH wrote:
Azuresun wrote:I took a crack at converting the other Coalition-created mutant animals from Lone Star (apes, cats, rats and bears). Hope this is useful for someone, and feedback would be welcome. :)

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1z6S ... sp=sharing

Interesting.
After a quick look, the balance seems off. Make sure you use the Custom D-Bee creation rules in the Tomorrow Legion Player's Guide.
For example, the Ape seems to be a +4 race (+9 benefits, only -5 drawbacks); also, the re-named Bad Reputation (Obvious Nonhuman) is listed as a Major drawback, which it is not. Were you confusing it with the Distinctive D-Bee drawback? Dog Boys use Outsider for a similar concept; in fact, taking more of the Dog Boy drawbacks is probably a good starting point for balance.

Good start, though.


Thanks for the feedback. Yes, it looks like I got the two drawbacks mixed up in my mind at some point, I've rewritten accordingly. As far as I can tell, everything else should add up now. :)

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Re: [Savage Rifts] The Great D-Bee Race Conversion Thread

#218 Postby JurneeJakes » Sun Mar 19, 2017 4:09 pm

I think the main reason I would be interested in playing as a Shemarrian would be for the role-play opportunities. Unfortunately, the setting does require a bit more combat and without the ability to increase physical stats by the time you reach veteran you could easily be behind the power curve on survival stats.


I was thinking of an Iconic Framework specific Edge to remedy this:

Unchained Edge
Prerequisite: Shemarrian, Spirit D10, Seasoned (or Veteran?)
The Shemarrian is fully aware that she is an artificial lifeform, and has broken ties to her creator, either through mechanical or electronic means, or through full development of their Neural Intelligence. The character is now able to increase their physical attributes through Advancement or Bionics, and is no longer subject to A.R.C.H.I.E's commands.

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Re: [Savage Rifts] The Great D-Bee Race Conversion Thread

#219 Postby Phasma Felis » Sun Mar 19, 2017 5:57 pm

JurneeJakes wrote:I was thinking of an Iconic Framework specific Edge to remedy this:

Unchained Edge
Prerequisite: Shemarrian, Spirit D10, Seasoned (or Veteran?)
The Shemarrian is fully aware that she is an artificial lifeform, and has broken ties to her creator, either through mechanical or electronic means, or through full development of their Neural Intelligence. The character is now able to increase their physical attributes through Advancement or Bionics, and is no longer subject to A.R.C.H.I.E's commands.

Rather than an Edge, should that be a default feature of all Shemarrian PCs? The same way that PC Altara no longer mindlessly serve the Splugorth.

Also, I don't know much about the Shemarrians, but are they supposed to not know that they're robots? How does that work with them being aggressive warriors? You'd think they'd start to wonder the first time they got shot and saw metal instead of meat.

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Re: [Savage Rifts] The Great D-Bee Race Conversion Thread

#220 Postby Freemage » Sun Mar 19, 2017 8:43 pm

Azuresun wrote:I took a crack at converting the other Coalition-created mutant animals from Lone Star (apes, cats, rats and bears). Hope this is useful for someone, and feedback would be welcome. :)

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1z6S ... sp=sharing


Interesting. I did a slightly different take on the same book--my rats, in particular, are considerably more potent (though also nastier) than yours. However, I just stole some of your ideas for the Cats--my original write-up didn't break down between the smaller and larger breeds, which was really a poor decision. Also, I see you skipped the Mini-Monkey Spies. While they're not particularly viable as a PC race (too many Hindrances to make interesting builds), I do think a Sidekick or Follower Mini-Monkeys could be useful, so I worked them up, too, along with the Psi-X aliens. (There's a few homebrews at the bottome of the list, too):

https://www.dropbox.com/s/trybqbzcfqa45 ... .docx?dl=0


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