[Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

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Freemage
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Re: [Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

#121 Postby Freemage » Tue Jan 31, 2017 6:41 pm

Okay, so I decided for this thread (only) it was acceptable to abuse the hell out of the fact that there's no point-limit in the racial build rules, and then went with a monomaniacal focus on durability. Of course, when taking this approach, it's actually better to start with all the racial drawbacks you're willing to accept, then build up to the resulting point total (+2, of course) with appropriate advantages. I give you...

Durrra
Cannot Speak: Don't worry, by the time we're done, no one will want to listen to you, anyway. (-1)
Bad Reputation: It starts.... (-1)
Smarts Penalty: -2: his is really the only 'safe' attribute for a -2 penalty. Sure, you suck at common knowledge rolls, but hey, you're gonna be Clueless, anyway. (-3)
Distinctive D-Bee: More people disliking you on sight.... (-1)
Racial Enemy (Fennodi): If you have to have an enemy, make it be the gentle guys. (-1)
Restricted Path (x2): No magic, no psi. We're gonna be doing cybernetics, once it comes time for the build, so no reason for these. (-2)
Minor Racial Hindrances: Ugly, Quirk, Stubborn, All Thumbs, Big Mouth, Cautious, Habit, Illiterate, Loyal, Obese, Outsider, Mean(-12)
Major Racial Hindrances: Arrogant, Clueless, Curious, Greedy, Overconfident, Heroic, Vow, Phobia (Rabbits), Bloodthirsty (-18)

So that gives you a grand total of -39. So now, to our 41 points of positive attributes. I back-figured the Armor and Vigor boosts once I got everything else down:

+3 Toughness (+3)
+3 Parry (+3)
Immune: Poison (+1)
4-die Attribute Increase (Vigor) (+8)
Racial Edges: Acrobat, Block/Improved Block, Dodge/Improved Dodge, Hard(er) to Kill, Tough As Nails/Improved Tough as Nails, Weapon Master/Master of Arms, Rich/Filthy Rich (+26)

For the Rich/Filthy Rich H&J rolls, take the Cybernetics Table, making sure you end up with 3 levels of Reinforced Frame (this may require spending one of your base H&J rolls, too, so that you have 6 rolls = 3 'choice').

This gives you a grand total of:
+7 Parry (+8 unencumbered)
-2 to be hit at range
+9 Toughness
Base/Max Vigor: d10/d12+4
Immunity to Poison
Charisma: -9/-13 (Fennodi and CS residents)

Applying this to the Glitterboy and MARS Techno-Warrior (you can work it as a Juicer, too, but that's kinda defeating the point) are left as an exercise to the reader, as is the effort of trying to justify this completely BS build to your GM. Don't tell 'em I sent you.

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Re: [Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

#122 Postby Tinkerer » Sun Feb 05, 2017 2:38 pm

Hmm, all of these power builds are good and everything, I mean an army of dragons or an unhittable Cyber Knight is nice, however I wonder how difficult it would be to cross the Dragonball Z threshold (being able to destroy the planet). As it turns out not very difficult at all... assuming you can make it to the moon. Note: This idea is based around one thing which I had to infer, that being that an object which is partially within your reach for powers is able to be affected by them. If that is not the case it can still be done however it requires the above Sidekick exploit to work. I am really glad that I read this thread because it pointed out one thing that I hadn't noticed before, that the Boost Trait ability stacks (first house rule I'm bringing in stops that). This loophole also requires a group, maybe a version could be done solo but that is way more math than I feel like doing.

#1 Group Composition - So your group will need about... oh let's say 5 Ley Line Walkers plus however many you want to speed up the plan, one primary and the rest support. Your Primary will require Telekinesis and Boost Trait, the rest will require Boost Trait, all of them getting the auto raise ability from the Mystic chart. Season to taste.

#2 Get them to the Moon - ???. Seriously this is the hardest step. The good news is once you are on the moon there is a settlement there with food, water, air, and most importantly ley lines.

#3 Super Charge the Primary - You are going to boost your Primaries Spirit stat up to about d12+56. The primary is going to use Exalted Telekinesis which boosts this up to d12+60. Extrapolating the Super Strength chart this will enable them to move the 81019881352942501888 tons of the moons mass. Each of your mages should be able to easily boost and maintain 4 times. At an increase of 4 for each of those boosts you will wind up meeting this with 4 mages. Only problem is that right now this method is S-L-O-W. The Spirit stat is used to determine the amount you can lift but apparently the Smarts stat determines how fast things can move (I think, SW doesn't provide any rules for how fast you can move an inanimate object but Smarts is how you determine how fast you can move a creature). So in this example lets use another 4 support staff to boost the primaries Smarts stat as well. Let's say that brings it up to d12+56 allowing us to move it at a rate of 75kph. This means that it will take our intrepid flight crew about 215 days to crash the moon into the Earth, although they can probably put it onto a collision course in 1/4 of that. Due to being on a ley line, and all of them being Ley Line Walkers, they can maintain those powers all day every day.

#4 No More Rifts Earth - Which is a pity because I really like this setting.

I suppose one could use a similar concept (perhaps combined with Growth?) to get strong enough to punch the Earth in half but I don't even know where to start with trying to figure out a planetary toughness rating. Actually I know exactly where to start with that, I'm just feeling a little lazy now. So... munchkiny enough for you?

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Re: [Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

#123 Postby Xanty » Sun Feb 05, 2017 5:28 pm

Tinkerer wrote:Hmm, all of these power builds are good and everything, I mean an army of dragons or an unhittable Cyber Knight is nice, however I wonder how difficult it would be to cross the Dragonball Z threshold (being able to destroy the planet). As it turns out not very difficult at all... assuming you can make it to the moon. Note: This idea is based around one thing which I had to infer, that being that an object which is partially within your reach for powers is able to be affected by them. If that is not the case it can still be done however it requires the above Sidekick exploit to work. I am really glad that I read this thread because it pointed out one thing that I hadn't noticed before, that the Boost Trait ability stacks (first house rule I'm bringing in stops that). This loophole also requires a group, maybe a version could be done solo but that is way more math than I feel like doing.

#1 Group Composition - So your group will need about... oh let's say 5 Ley Line Walkers plus however many you want to speed up the plan, one primary and the rest support. Your Primary will require Telekinesis and Boost Trait, the rest will require Boost Trait, all of them getting the auto raise ability from the Mystic chart. Season to taste.

#2 Get them to the Moon - ???. Seriously this is the hardest step. The good news is once you are on the moon there is a settlement there with food, water, air, and most importantly ley lines.

#3 Super Charge the Primary - You are going to boost your Primaries Spirit stat up to about d12+56. The primary is going to use Exalted Telekinesis which boosts this up to d12+60. Extrapolating the Super Strength chart this will enable them to move the 81019881352942501888 tons of the moons mass. Each of your mages should be able to easily boost and maintain 4 times. At an increase of 4 for each of those boosts you will wind up meeting this with 4 mages. Only problem is that right now this method is S-L-O-W. The Spirit stat is used to determine the amount you can lift but apparently the Smarts stat determines how fast things can move (I think, SW doesn't provide any rules for how fast you can move an inanimate object but Smarts is how you determine how fast you can move a creature). So in this example lets use another 4 support staff to boost the primaries Smarts stat as well. Let's say that brings it up to d12+56 allowing us to move it at a rate of 75kph. This means that it will take our intrepid flight crew about 215 days to crash the moon into the Earth, although they can probably put it onto a collision course in 1/4 of that. Due to being on a ley line, and all of them being Ley Line Walkers, they can maintain those powers all day every day.

#4 No More Rifts Earth - Which is a pity because I really like this setting.

I suppose one could use a similar concept (perhaps combined with Growth?) to get strong enough to punch the Earth in half but I don't even know where to start with trying to figure out a planetary toughness rating. Actually I know exactly where to start with that, I'm just feeling a little lazy now. So... munchkiny enough for you?


Boost trait powers boosting the same trait do not stack. Instead, only the highest active boost for each trait applies.
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Re: [Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

#124 Postby Matchstickman » Sun Feb 05, 2017 6:08 pm

Xanty wrote:Boost trait powers boosting the same trait do not stack. Instead, only the highest active boost for each trait applies.

I don't believe Rifts has a specific clause cancelling the base power's rules.
viewtopic.php?f=56&t=44709&p=413041&hilit=boost+lower+stack#p413041
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Re: [Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

#125 Postby Xanty » Sun Feb 05, 2017 6:20 pm

Matchstickman wrote:
Xanty wrote:Boost trait powers boosting the same trait do not stack. Instead, only the highest active boost for each trait applies.

I don't believe Rifts has a specific clause cancelling the base power's rules.
viewtopic.php?f=56&t=44709&p=413041&hilit=boost+lower+stack#p413041


I stand corrected.
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Re: [Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

#126 Postby Tinkerer » Sun Feb 05, 2017 6:25 pm

Yeah, Boost/Lower Trait and Growth seem to be pretty broken due to the fact that they stack. I've got a list of houserules going that I'll probably be posting next weekend and that is number one on my list. Although Growth stacking does bring to mind some very interesting Kaiju style fights. Plus it is another thing which can stand up to the HTH Burster. "Oh hey, I'm 500' tall now"

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Re: [Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

#127 Postby Xanty » Sun Feb 05, 2017 6:46 pm

Tinkerer wrote:Yeah, Boost/Lower Trait and Growth seem to be pretty broken due to the fact that they stack. I've got a list of houserules going that I'll probably be posting next weekend and that is number one on my list. Although Growth stacking does bring to mind some very interesting Kaiju style fights. Plus it is another thing which can stand up to the HTH Burster. "Oh hey, I'm 500' tall now"


A Hatchling Flamewind Dragon can EASILY stand up to the HtH Burster... they just may not be able to compare to the raw damage output against a third target.
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Re: [Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

#128 Postby dragonfett » Mon Feb 06, 2017 3:16 am

Tinkerer wrote:Hmm, all of these power builds are good and everything, I mean an army of dragons or an unhittable Cyber Knight is nice, however I wonder how difficult it would be to cross the Dragonball Z threshold (being able to destroy the planet). As it turns out not very difficult at all... assuming you can make it to the moon. Note: This idea is based around one thing which I had to infer, that being that an object which is partially within your reach for powers is able to be affected by them. If that is not the case it can still be done however it requires the above Sidekick exploit to work. I am really glad that I read this thread because it pointed out one thing that I hadn't noticed before, that the Boost Trait ability stacks (first house rule I'm bringing in stops that). This loophole also requires a group, maybe a version could be done solo but that is way more math than I feel like doing.

#1 Group Composition - So your group will need about... oh let's say 5 Ley Line Walkers plus however many you want to speed up the plan, one primary and the rest support. Your Primary will require Telekinesis and Boost Trait, the rest will require Boost Trait, all of them getting the auto raise ability from the Mystic chart. Season to taste.

#2 Get them to the Moon - ???. Seriously this is the hardest step. The good news is once you are on the moon there is a settlement there with food, water, air, and most importantly ley lines.

#3 Super Charge the Primary - You are going to boost your Primaries Spirit stat up to about d12+56. The primary is going to use Exalted Telekinesis which boosts this up to d12+60. Extrapolating the Super Strength chart this will enable them to move the 81019881352942501888 tons of the moons mass. Each of your mages should be able to easily boost and maintain 4 times. At an increase of 4 for each of those boosts you will wind up meeting this with 4 mages. Only problem is that right now this method is S-L-O-W. The Spirit stat is used to determine the amount you can lift but apparently the Smarts stat determines how fast things can move (I think, SW doesn't provide any rules for how fast you can move an inanimate object but Smarts is how you determine how fast you can move a creature). So in this example lets use another 4 support staff to boost the primaries Smarts stat as well. Let's say that brings it up to d12+56 allowing us to move it at a rate of 75kph. This means that it will take our intrepid flight crew about 215 days to crash the moon into the Earth, although they can probably put it onto a collision course in 1/4 of that. Due to being on a ley line, and all of them being Ley Line Walkers, they can maintain those powers all day every day.

#4 No More Rifts Earth - Which is a pity because I really like this setting.

I suppose one could use a similar concept (perhaps combined with Growth?) to get strong enough to punch the Earth in half but I don't even know where to start with trying to figure out a planetary toughness rating. Actually I know exactly where to start with that, I'm just feeling a little lazy now. So... munchkiny enough for you?


It is not Rifts Earth if you don't ask your GM "What's the MDC of the planet?"

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Re: [Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

#129 Postby Ndreare » Mon Feb 06, 2017 10:05 am

dragonfett wrote:
It is not Rifts Earth if you don't ask your GM "What's the MDC of the planet?"


Lol, best quote of the month.

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Re: [Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

#130 Postby jcobbers » Mon Feb 06, 2017 2:55 pm

Tinkerer wrote:
#2 Get them to the Moon - ???. Seriously this is the hardest step. The good news is once you are on the moon there is a settlement there with food, water, air, and most importantly ley lines.


Actually not that hard, but your team will want to be wearing EBA for this. Simple solution is to open a Rift to the moon, hire a Shifter for a few thousand credits, easy. Great thing about rifts is they can go anywhere, which ought to include the moon. Otherwise you could teleport, but that'd take an ungodly amount of PP for even the Greater Teleport power.

Also since scientist believe that the moon was created when Earth had an impact with another rocky object billions of years ago, hitting the Earth with the moon might not destroy it so much as kick out enough mass to create a new moon. Of course it would probably end all life on the planet, but that'd only serve to super charge the ley lines and rifts further than they already are.

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Re: [Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

#131 Postby Freemage » Mon Feb 06, 2017 3:01 pm

jcobbers wrote:
Tinkerer wrote:
#2 Get them to the Moon - ???. Seriously this is the hardest step. The good news is once you are on the moon there is a settlement there with food, water, air, and most importantly ley lines.


Actually not that hard, but your team will want to be wearing EBA for this. Simple solution is to open a Rift to the moon, hire a Shifter for a few thousand credits, easy. Great thing about rifts is they can go anywhere, which ought to include the moon. Otherwise you could teleport, but that'd take an ungodly amount of PP for even the Greater Teleport power.

Also since scientist believe that the moon was created when Earth had an impact with another rocky object billions of years ago, hitting the Earth with the moon might not destroy it so much as kick out enough mass to create a new moon. Of course it would probably end all life on the planet, but that'd only serve to super charge the ley lines and rifts further than they already are.


Note that in SR, specifically, the rules for Rift-Manipulation are still "Coming Soon", per the GM Guide. There's a few specific manipulations possible, but they are fairly restricted:

A Ley Line Walker can use a Ley Line Rift to go to any Nexus "on Rifts Earth".
A Rift can be made Stable, so long as it was not originally Exploding or Consuming (those can pretty much just be made to go away, by making them Diminishing).
Rifts can be pushed to cycle through destinations faster.
Finally, a Rift can be goaded into going to a location that is already a part of its regular list.

So, essentially, the only way to use an SR Rift to get to the moon at this point in time is for the GM to place a Rift that goes to the moon in the first place. If she's remotely aware of the intentions of the party, we can safely assume that this ain't gonna happen....

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Re: [Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

#132 Postby jcobbers » Mon Feb 06, 2017 3:32 pm

Freemage wrote:
jcobbers wrote:
Tinkerer wrote:
#2 Get them to the Moon - ???. Seriously this is the hardest step. The good news is once you are on the moon there is a settlement there with food, water, air, and most importantly ley lines.


Actually not that hard, but your team will want to be wearing EBA for this. Simple solution is to open a Rift to the moon, hire a Shifter for a few thousand credits, easy. Great thing about rifts is they can go anywhere, which ought to include the moon. Otherwise you could teleport, but that'd take an ungodly amount of PP for even the Greater Teleport power.

Also since scientist believe that the moon was created when Earth had an impact with another rocky object billions of years ago, hitting the Earth with the moon might not destroy it so much as kick out enough mass to create a new moon. Of course it would probably end all life on the planet, but that'd only serve to super charge the ley lines and rifts further than they already are.


Note that in SR, specifically, the rules for Rift-Manipulation are still "Coming Soon", per the GM Guide. There's a few specific manipulations possible, but they are fairly restricted:

A Ley Line Walker can use a Ley Line Rift to go to any Nexus "on Rifts Earth".
A Rift can be made Stable, so long as it was not originally Exploding or Consuming (those can pretty much just be made to go away, by making them Diminishing).
Rifts can be pushed to cycle through destinations faster.
Finally, a Rift can be goaded into going to a location that is already a part of its regular list.

So, essentially, the only way to use an SR Rift to get to the moon at this point in time is for the GM to place a Rift that goes to the moon in the first place. If she's remotely aware of the intentions of the party, we can safely assume that this ain't gonna happen....


Shoot, you're right on the money! I was thinking of Shifters from the original Rifts setting. But, I found a workable solution for that: check Pg 90 of the GM Guide on Easy Rifts:
These Rifts are favorites for anyone with any knowledge of magic, as they’re incredibly easy to manipulate. Anyone with Magic skill can spend 20 PPE and make a roll to focus the Rift on any Rifts Earth location or other world he wishes. He can keep the portal open for 1 PPE per minute, so long as he stays within his Smarts range of the portal on either side.


So if these LLW can find an Easy Rift, then they can get to the moon without much trouble at all.

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Re: [Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

#133 Postby Ndreare » Mon Feb 06, 2017 3:34 pm

The Game Master's Guide page 94 and 95 are pretty clear. A LLW can "operate" a Rift. Others have to make rolls that are highly penalized. But I do not see a "coming soon" aspect?

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Re: [Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

#134 Postby Freemage » Mon Feb 06, 2017 4:25 pm

Ndreare wrote:The Game Master's Guide page 94 and 95 are pretty clear. A LLW can "operate" a Rift. Others have to make rolls that are highly penalized. But I do not see a "coming soon" aspect?


Took me a bit to find it:

Page 89 wrote:Particularly accomplished wielders of
arcane or mystic powers, as well as some
very gifted psionicists, are able to open Rifts
through effort and will. Future products
in the Savage Rifts® line will introduce
these abilities,
but as GM, you can feature
scenarios where a caster or powerful entity
manipulates or causes a Rift to open for
his own purposes.
Last edited by Freemage on Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: [Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

#135 Postby Ndreare » Mon Feb 06, 2017 4:43 pm

Yes, someone in the Facebook group pointed this out as page 90 and I was able to find it.
Strange thing I never noticed it, but once I read it, it seams pretty clear.

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Re: [Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

#136 Postby The Ineffible GM » Fri Feb 10, 2017 10:49 am

Maybe not quite as broken as some of these other specifically designed characters, but a bit of a loophole:

- Cybernetic weapon implants can be any personal weapon.
- M.A.R.S. Cybernetic Techno-Warrior gets up to six Strain of implants, not limited by cost.
- Choose Arcane Background as a starting Edge
- Implant a Battle Fury Blade or two. Maybe a TK Machine Gun.
- It does not require an activation roll to turn on or charge any TW weapons. Use all your PP as fuel for TW weapons, and not worry about penalties from Strain.

Congratulations, you have a Momano Headhunter.

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Re: [Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

#137 Postby jcobbers » Fri Feb 10, 2017 11:51 am

The Ineffible GM wrote:Maybe not quite as broken as some of these other specifically designed characters, but a bit of a loophole:

- Cybernetic weapon implants can be any personal weapon.
- M.A.R.S. Cybernetic Techno-Warrior gets up to six Strain of implants, not limited by cost.
- Choose Arcane Background as a starting Edge
- Implant a Battle Fury Blade or two. Maybe a TK Machine Gun.
- It does not require an activation roll to turn on or charge any TW weapons. Use all your PP as fuel for TW weapons, and not worry about penalties from Strain.

Congratulations, you have a Momano Headhunter.

That's kind of a brilliant way to get around the strain penalty for AB casting rolls :1xyxthumbs:

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Re: [Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

#138 Postby Freemage » Fri Feb 10, 2017 11:55 am

The Ineffible GM wrote:Maybe not quite as broken as some of these other specifically designed characters, but a bit of a loophole:

- Cybernetic weapon implants can be any personal weapon.
- M.A.R.S. Cybernetic Techno-Warrior gets up to six Strain of implants, not limited by cost.
- Choose Arcane Background as a starting Edge
- Implant a Battle Fury Blade or two. Maybe a TK Machine Gun.
- It does not require an activation roll to turn on or charge any TW weapons. Use all your PP as fuel for TW weapons, and not worry about penalties from Strain.

Congratulations, you have a Momano Headhunter.

I'd allow it. Spending an Edge, and 1.3M Credits, should get you some sort of advantage, I'd think, and the advantages of the weapon being an implant are not particularly huge.

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Re: [Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

#139 Postby The Ineffible GM » Fri Feb 10, 2017 12:46 pm

Freemage wrote:I'd allow it. Spending an Edge, and 1.3M Credits, should get you some sort of advantage, I'd think, and the advantages of the weapon being an implant are not particularly huge.


The big advantage is that you don't have to spend 13 million credits. The MARS gets to choose a number of Strain worth of cybernetics, and a Battle Fury blade is two strain worth of implants.

That, and you can implant TW guns and power them, where normally you have to have the Combat Cyborg IF to power any implant guns.

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Re: [Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

#140 Postby Freemage » Fri Feb 10, 2017 1:05 pm

The Ineffible GM wrote:
Freemage wrote:I'd allow it. Spending an Edge, and 1.3M Credits, should get you some sort of advantage, I'd think, and the advantages of the weapon being an implant are not particularly huge.


The big advantage is that you don't have to spend 13 million credits. The MARS gets to choose a number of Strain worth of cybernetics, and a Battle Fury blade is two strain worth of implants.

That, and you can implant TW guns and power them, where normally you have to have the Combat Cyborg IF to power any implant guns.


Ah, gotcha. Still, that's a reasonable thing to me--potent, yes, but still something that could go awry (FREX--Power-point drainers of all sorts are going to be a nightmare for this build). It's possible for a Robot Armor Jock to start with a Behemoth (85M Credits), so I don't sweat the starting gear too much.


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