[Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

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Re: [Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

#141 Postby pkitty » Mon Feb 13, 2017 4:00 am

The Ineffible GM wrote:Maybe not quite as broken as some of these other specifically designed characters, but a bit of a loophole:

- Cybernetic weapon implants can be any personal weapon.
- M.A.R.S. Cybernetic Techno-Warrior gets up to six Strain of implants, not limited by cost.
- Choose Arcane Background as a starting Edge
- Implant a Battle Fury Blade or two. Maybe a TK Machine Gun.
- It does not require an activation roll to turn on or charge any TW weapons. Use all your PP as fuel for TW weapons, and not worry about penalties from Strain.

Congratulations, you have a Momano Headhunter.


Wow, I love this idea! So much, in fact, that I went ahead and statted up a character based on it. The HJ rolls are cheesed, of course, but she should be 100% legal. She activates the Battle Fury Blade and then relies more on the Draining Blade (two of her three attacks per turn) to destroy an opponent's Vigor and wipe him out quickly. Of course, this is preceded* by a free-action d12+4 Agility trick to pretty much guarantee a shaken, -2 Parry foe. And she's almost as versatile at a distance -- especially once she can afford 40K for a +4d Shooting WSP chip.

(I take credit for realizing that AB (Super Powers) is the way to go here. Is she ever going to be able to actually activate Quickness? Of course not. But those 20 PPE are sweet.)

* I'm not 100% sure if Berserk allows Agility tricks, so I've asked Clint. Even if not, that free trick means she'll rarely even need to rely on Battle Fury!
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Re: [Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

#142 Postby The Ineffible GM » Mon Feb 13, 2017 1:19 pm

pkitty wrote:Wow, I love this idea! So much, in fact, that I went ahead and statted up a character based on it. The HJ rolls are cheesed, of course, but she should be 100% legal. She activates the Battle Fury Blade and then relies more on the Draining Blade (two of her three attacks per turn) to destroy an opponent's Vigor and wipe him out quickly. Of course, this is preceded* by a free-action d12+4 Agility trick to pretty much guarantee a shaken, -2 Parry foe. And she's almost as versatile at a distance -- especially once she can afford 40K for a +4d Shooting WSP chip.

(I take credit for realizing that AB (Super Powers) is the way to go here. Is she ever going to be able to actually activate Quickness? Of course not. But those 20 PPE are sweet.)

* I'm not 100% sure if Berserk allows Agility tricks, so I've asked Clint. Even if not, that free trick means she'll rarely even need to rely on Battle Fury!


By the book, yes the AP Superpowers from the core book is the way to go for more PP.

As a GM I wouldn't allow that particular AB, for a couple reasons:
- In any Savage Worlds game I run that Edge is replaced with superpowers as per Necessary Evil or the Superpower Companion. No Power Points.
- In the Rifts setting super powers are not fueled by PPE or ISP, but those are what you need to power TW devices

That being said, the Savage Rifts book does technically and clearly state that ALL AB from Savage Worlds are available in Savage Rifts.

Personally I envisioned using the AB Psionics, so that if you wanted a point boost you could take the Major Psionic Edge that doubles your points and also lets you use points to get a bonus on your roll by spending more points if you decide you really need to try and use your powers.

I would take powers that are cheap so you don't care if they fail or are vital in dire situations. Speak Language, Healing, Flight, etc.

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Re: [Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

#143 Postby pkitty » Mon Feb 13, 2017 3:25 pm

The Ineffible GM wrote:Personally I envisioned using the AB Psionics, so that if you wanted a point boost you could take the Major Psionic Edge


That's probably the best way to go if you're trying to plan for the long term here (or you want to use a Quick Flex, which I considered), but I think the 20 from AB (Super Powers) will get you through most fights.

and also lets you use points to get a bonus on your roll by spending more points if you decide you really need to try and use your powers.

I would take powers that are cheap so you don't care if they fail or are vital in dire situations. Speak Language, Healing, Flight, etc.


I guess if you're only taking the 6 Strain to get the good weapons, and otherwise not taking a single piece of cybernetics, it might be worth trying to actually use a noncombat power? But even then I wouldn't bother; a -6 penalty is too much to soak (and Improved Cyber-Psychic Alignment isn't worth it). IMO, the beauty of your suggestion was that you could load up on Strain without ever worrying about trying to actually use a power.

If you decide to build your own Master Psi Headhunter, please post it here! I'll be curious to see how many times the character's dice have to ace to actually cast something. :)
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Re: [Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

#144 Postby jcobbers » Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:59 pm

Been rolling an idea around in my head trying to maximize a GB build to make it much tougher and generally hard to kill than the standard 30(18), and still effective in combat.

So very roughly, after maxing hindrances, I am looking at using tough as nails/ improved tough as nails from born a hero(+2 toughness) and Rich on a human base.
Attributes start at: d8 vigor and spirit, d6 agility, d4 strength and smarts. Giving us strain of 8; and toughness of 8
bought shooting up to d10, fighting to d8; intimidation to d6; and repair, notice and knowledge battle at d4.

HJ rolls and rich all on cybernetics for *3 reinforced frame(+6 toughness); *2 synthetic organs (+2d to vigor, so another +2 to toughness), went for +1d cyber strength (up to d so he can wear his starting body armor out of the GB; and lastly a nano repair system for when SHTF and he does get hurt. This uses all the available strain.

This leaves me with 16 toughness out of armor; 22(5) toughness in standard huntsman body armor; and 40(18)MDC in Glitterboy armor. I wanna call this build, Frank the Tank.

Any ideas to improve on this build / did I miss anything? I figure his first advance would be to buy the Brawny edge for another +1 Toughness, but wanted to take the legendary edges from the get go.

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Re: [Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

#145 Postby Freemage » Thu Feb 16, 2017 12:26 am

jcobbers wrote:Been rolling an idea around in my head trying to maximize a GB build to make it much tougher and generally hard to kill than the standard 30(18), and still effective in combat.

So very roughly, after maxing hindrances, I am looking at using tough as nails/ improved tough as nails from born a hero(+2 toughness) and Rich on a human base.
Attributes start at: d8 vigor and spirit, d6 agility, d4 strength and smarts. Giving us strain of 8; and toughness of 8
bought shooting up to d10, fighting to d8; intimidation to d6; and repair, notice and knowledge battle at d4.

HJ rolls and rich all on cybernetics for *3 reinforced frame(+6 toughness); *2 synthetic organs (+2d to vigor, so another +2 to toughness), went for +1d cyber strength (up to d so he can wear his starting body armor out of the GB; and lastly a nano repair system for when SHTF and he does get hurt. This uses all the available strain.

This leaves me with 16 toughness out of armor; 22(5) toughness in standard huntsman body armor; and 40(18)MDC in Glitterboy armor. I wanna call this build, Frank the Tank.

Any ideas to improve on this build / did I miss anything? I figure his first advance would be to buy the Brawny edge for another +1 Toughness, but wanted to take the legendary edges from the get go.


Well, instead of human, you could always custom-build a human-enough race (to pilot a GB, that is) that gets another +3 Toughness, with as many Vigor boosts as you're willing to pay for with Racial disadvantages, to-boot. Take your build and slap it on top of that.

Or just go hog-wild and use the Durra I posted on page 7 of this thread--they're utterly insane, but maybe if you get the GM drunk enough before getting him to sign off on it, you'll be in the clear.

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Re: [Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

#146 Postby ValhallaGH » Thu Feb 16, 2017 12:38 am

jcobbers wrote:Any ideas to improve on this build / did I miss anything?

http://www.pegforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=448359#p448359
That will take you to the end of the multi-post tangent about Toughest Glitter Boy. The secret is Synthetic Organ Replacement; with 18 Strain, that's 14 or 15 levels of S.O.R. for a Vigor d12+16/+17 (human), plus the other bonuses. Total Toughness 25 naked, 31 (5) in Huntsman armor, or 49 (18) M.D.C. in the Glitter Boy armor. With Elan and Battle Hardened, you're rolling d12+20/+21 to Soak.
A heavy cybernetic dog boy can do a little better, due to breed edges, but it would be a strange dog boy that loaded up on so many bionics.
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Re: [Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

#147 Postby jcobbers » Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:21 am

ValhallaGH wrote:
jcobbers wrote:Any ideas to improve on this build / did I miss anything?

http://www.pegforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=448359#p448359
That will take you to the end of the multi-post tangent about Toughest Glitter Boy. The secret is Synthetic Organ Replacement; with 18 Strain, that's 14 or 15 levels of S.O.R. for a Vigor d12+16/+17 (human), plus the other bonuses. Total Toughness 25 naked, 31 (5) in Huntsman armor, or 49 (18) M.D.C. in the Glitter Boy armor. With Elan and Battle Hardened, you're rolling d12+20/+21 to Soak.
A heavy cybernetic dog boy can do a little better, due to breed edges, but it would be a strange dog boy that loaded up on so many bionics.

I take it that is with advances taken as the character gains experience, yes? This is an initial build, but I can see where it would go if I wanted to make him harder than woodpecker lips! :)
The idea I was going for didn't want to totally nerf all the attributes (hence the level of bionic strength) as it would make him too weak to wear his body armor, and you need to keep spirit balanced with vigor to gain higher level of starting strain.

Freemage wrote:Well, instead of human, you could always custom-build a human-enough race (to pilot a GB, that is) that gets another +3 Toughness, with as many Vigor boosts as you're willing to pay for with Racial disadvantages, to-boot. Take your build and slap it on top of that.

Or just go hog-wild and use the Durra I posted on page 7 of this thread--they're utterly insane, but maybe if you get the GM drunk enough before getting him to sign off on it, you'll be in the clear.


Lol yes there is that route, I don't think a reasonable GM is going to sign off on something like the Durra as playable! The HJ rolls would then end up in all Synthetic Organs and keeping the strain balanced, via a high spirit / upgradable (as racially you already have the reinforced frame) and the obese hindrance might make him unable to fit in the armor, but if not, you would have a GB that is really the "Strong Silent Type"!

I think I forgot this thread was the min-maxing thread for a minute, versus a lets make something reasonable :drinking: :mrgreen:

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Re: [Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

#148 Postby ValhallaGH » Thu Feb 16, 2017 1:14 pm

The final build (Toughness 49 (18)) is Legendary-ish.
Starting character, in the link, is 42 (18). Which is +2 better than Frank the Tank.

Frank is a little bit more playable, but not as tough.
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Re: [Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

#149 Postby Freemage » Fri Feb 17, 2017 12:31 pm

Okay, in the vein of this thread, I'm going to post my Squib's Guide to Hindrances. By no means should this be taken as a serious guide to character building; rather, it's specifically geared towards min/maxing and other forms of loophole exploitation. (If anything, you find yourself consistently doing things like this, you may want to reconsider your true motives.)

As an aside, note that when building a one-shot race, it almost always makes sense to put as many of the Hindrances as you can justify onto the race itself, because you can buy cool abilities that may not even be available as Edges (or which may be cheaper than Edges--compare the Toughness boost to Tough as Nails).

Second, in any case where there is a Major/Minor option, assume that it's the Minor version being discussed. Most of the time, the actual penalties associated with the Major version are going to be anethema to Squib Philosophy.

So, to begin, we have our list of prime choices for Hindrances for the Squib. The primary reason for them to appear on this list is that they have minimal (or frequently no) impact on mechanics. They lean heavily towards role-play guidance, with a few mechanical drawbacks that are only a problem if you're adventuring solo (or if everyone at the table is thinking the same way).

You won't necessarily be able to take all of these, of course, since many of them are contradictory. Just pick the ones that best match your natural play-style, so that you can respond to complaints about your character's conduct on "good role-playing". In general, though, any of these will work for 90% of the characters out there--this is your go-to list for "if there's no specific reason not to, do it".

Big Mouth
Cautious
Clueless (This one should only be taken by one or two members of the party; you'll want someone to be able to succeed reliably at Common Knowledge rolls, after all)
Code of Honor
Curious
Death Wish (this should be designed so that the "I can die now" is pretty much accomplished when you complete the campaign: "Destroy the Three Hags" in a 50 Fathoms game, for instance)
Delusional (really, at the Minor level, this is a reskin of Quirk)
Heroic
Illiterate
Overconfident
Quirk
Stubborn
Greedy
Pacifist
Vengeful
Vow

Next up, we've got the Fugly Bunch. All of these share a single mechanical drawback--they kick you in the Charisma. Since even a minor flat penalty is brutal in SW, once you hit -2, you may as well just keep going. As such, they may be things you want to avoid in social campaigns, or if you're wanting to be the party's face. If, OTOH, you're already planning on playing a sociopathic loner outsider? Yeah, go for it, these may be a better fit than the first list.

Bloodthirsty
Mean

Outsider
Ugly
Habit

Next up are the highly situational choices. They have a significant mechanical effect on a specific trait or type of roll. While serious role-players might welcome the challenge of playing against type or overcoming a significant obstacle, the Squib is specifically trying to avoid that sort of thing. Ergo, only consider these if you're playing a concept for which the specific drawbacks are a non-issue. For instance, if you're playing a diplomancer/spellcaster in a low-tech setting , All Thumbs is suddenly a free boost; similarly, if the campaign is set in a temperate urban setting, anemic becomes much less likely to be a problem (especially if the succor Power is on the table).

Bad Eyes
Hard of Hearing
Obese
All Thumbs
Anemic
Arrogant

The last two are the Lazy GM pair. Their Squib Factor is in direct proportion to your GM's laziness, since the opportunities for them to have an impact depends heavily on the GM writing them into the campaign. Just be prepared--sometimes, even the laziest GM will wake up, note the words on the sheet, and decide this is the moment for your Enemy to strike.

Enemy
Wanted

Most other Hindrances have too broad an impact to really appeal to the Squib. Ergo, you'll want to evade them as much as possible.

Edited to move Obese to the third category.
Last edited by Freemage on Fri Feb 17, 2017 4:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: [Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

#150 Postby ValhallaGH » Fri Feb 17, 2017 12:57 pm

I am always amused how often Illiterate ruins a player's plans. :lol:
Found a page of information? Utterly useless to you.
Need to leave a message for friends, enemies, or allies? Can't do anything more complex than artistic arrangement of corpses.
City usefully labelled with street signs? No help to you.
Found a map? Can't use the legend, notes, location names, or even adding up your distance traveled so far.
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Re: [Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

#151 Postby Sitting Duck » Fri Feb 17, 2017 3:42 pm

Freemage wrote:Next up, we've got the Fugly Bunch. All of these share a single mechanical drawback--they kick you in the Charisma. Since even a minor flat penalty is brutal in SW, once you hit -2, you may as well just keep going. As such, they may be things you want to avoid in social campaigns, or if you're wanting to be the party's face. If, OTOH, you're already planning on playing a sociopathic loner outsider? Yeah, go for it, these may be a better fit than the first list.

Bloodthirsty
Mean
Obese
Outsider
Ugly
Habit


Wait a minute, what's Obese doing there? IIRC the only penalties it inflicts are to Pace and the Running Die, not to Charisma.
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Re: [Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

#152 Postby Freemage » Fri Feb 17, 2017 4:40 pm

Sitting Duck wrote:
Freemage wrote:Next up, we've got the Fugly Bunch. All of these share a single mechanical drawback--they kick you in the Charisma. Since even a minor flat penalty is brutal in SW, once you hit -2, you may as well just keep going. As such, they may be things you want to avoid in social campaigns, or if you're wanting to be the party's face. If, OTOH, you're already planning on playing a sociopathic loner outsider? Yeah, go for it, these may be a better fit than the first list.

Bloodthirsty
Mean
Obese
Outsider
Ugly
Habit


Wait a minute, what's Obese doing there? IIRC the only penalties it inflicts are to Pace and the Running Die, not to Charisma.


Gah, you're correct--was going from a C&P'ed list, left that in that section by accident. It should be in with the situational choices. Power Armor Jocks with Obese can get away with it; Cyber-Knights and Juicers are definitely no-gos. And ValhallaGH: Oh, sure, it's easy to counter Squibbing, if the GM is alert. However, Illiterate, like Clueless, is unlikely to be a game-breaker so long as at least some of the party does not pick it. It works unless the campaign is likely to involve either splitting up, or a very small group in the first place (since solo action becomes far more likely).

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Re: [Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

#153 Postby Freemage » Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:04 pm

Okay, so this happened.

I'm now reasserting my claim that, for long-term play, the Techno-Wizard is quite possibly the most overpowered class in the game. No other caster starts out with a straight-up +2 on all powers, before any Edges or H&J rolls. It's a trivial build to end up with a grand total of +5 to the roll (Born A Hero to take Professional/Expert, and spend two H&J rolls to get the Magic Staff o' Doooooom).

So not only are your starting powers now at +5 to cast, but so are all your created-in-the-field devices. And that's BEFORE you start enchanting all your gear so you can buy all the Edges.

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Re: [Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

#154 Postby Brickulos » Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:29 pm

Freemage wrote:Okay, so this happened.

I'm now reasserting my claim that, for long-term play, the Techno-Wizard is quite possibly the most overpowered class in the game. No other caster starts out with a straight-up +2 on all powers, before any Edges or H&J rolls. It's a trivial build to end up with a grand total of +5 to the roll (Born A Hero to take Professional/Expert, and spend two H&J rolls to get the Magic Staff o' Doooooom).

So not only are your starting powers now at +5 to cast, but so are all your created-in-the-field devices. And that's BEFORE you start enchanting all your gear so you can buy all the Edges.


Point of order, the magic staff gives no bonus Techno-Wizards. In only gives a +1 to Miracles and Spellcasting.

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Re: [Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

#155 Postby Freemage » Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:48 pm

Brickulos wrote:
Freemage wrote:Okay, so this happened.

I'm now reasserting my claim that, for long-term play, the Techno-Wizard is quite possibly the most overpowered class in the game. No other caster starts out with a straight-up +2 on all powers, before any Edges or H&J rolls. It's a trivial build to end up with a grand total of +5 to the roll (Born A Hero to take Professional/Expert, and spend two H&J rolls to get the Magic Staff o' Doooooom).

So not only are your starting powers now at +5 to cast, but so are all your created-in-the-field devices. And that's BEFORE you start enchanting all your gear so you can buy all the Edges.


Point of order, the magic staff gives no bonus Techno-Wizards. In only gives a +1 to Miracles and Spellcasting.

Ah, I hadn't looked at it recently. So, ONLY a +4 to start out, before you get around to building a TW item that grants a +2 and +2 die-types to your Techno-wizardry Skill.

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Re: [Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

#156 Postby Brickulos » Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:52 pm

Freemage wrote:
Brickulos wrote:
Freemage wrote:Okay, so this happened.

I'm now reasserting my claim that, for long-term play, the Techno-Wizard is quite possibly the most overpowered class in the game. No other caster starts out with a straight-up +2 on all powers, before any Edges or H&J rolls. It's a trivial build to end up with a grand total of +5 to the roll (Born A Hero to take Professional/Expert, and spend two H&J rolls to get the Magic Staff o' Doooooom).

So not only are your starting powers now at +5 to cast, but so are all your created-in-the-field devices. And that's BEFORE you start enchanting all your gear so you can buy all the Edges.


Point of order, the magic staff gives no bonus Techno-Wizards. In only gives a +1 to Miracles and Spellcasting.

Ah, I hadn't looked at it recently. So, ONLY a +4 to start out, before you get around to building a TW item that grants a +2 and +2 die-types to your Techno-wizardry Skill.


To be fair, it's only a +4 when using TW gear in non-combat situations. And the additional static bonuses are an advantage that can be reaped by all AB having PCs. I quite enjoyed my tenure as the party's magic Q.

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Re: [Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

#157 Postby Freemage » Fri Mar 10, 2017 12:11 am

Brickulos wrote:
Freemage wrote:
Brickulos wrote:
Point of order, the magic staff gives no bonus Techno-Wizards. In only gives a +1 to Miracles and Spellcasting.

Ah, I hadn't looked at it recently. So, ONLY a +4 to start out, before you get around to building a TW item that grants a +2 and +2 die-types to your Techno-wizardry Skill.


To be fair, it's only a +4 when using TW gear in non-combat situations. And the additional static bonuses are an advantage that can be reaped by all AB having PCs. I quite enjoyed my tenure as the party's magic Q.


Nope--I meant the +2 from Professional/Expert Legendary Edges taken at creation, and the +2 for TW gear. Outside of combat, it becomes a total of +6.

ANd yes, the rest of the party should benefit, too, but broken 'support' is sometimes the most broken aspect of a game. I've seen dice-pool games where the support character nearly doubled the dice pools of all the rest of the party. :) (Note: Being 'broken' in Rifts, at least, isn't necessarily the criticism it would be in other games, or even other SW settings. To an extent, everything's broken, the TW is just, IMNSHO, the biggest example on the block, at least over the long-term, because of the whole, "Now we can buy Edges" aspect.)

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Re: [Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

#158 Postby Brickulos » Fri Mar 10, 2017 12:17 am

Freemage wrote:
Brickulos wrote:
Freemage wrote:Ah, I hadn't looked at it recently. So, ONLY a +4 to start out, before you get around to building a TW item that grants a +2 and +2 die-types to your Techno-wizardry Skill.


To be fair, it's only a +4 when using TW gear in non-combat situations. And the additional static bonuses are an advantage that can be reaped by all AB having PCs. I quite enjoyed my tenure as the party's magic Q.


Nope--I meant the +2 from Professional/Expert Legendary Edges taken at creation, and the +2 for TW gear. Outside of combat, it becomes a total of +6.

ANd yes, the rest of the party should benefit, too, but broken 'support' is sometimes the most broken aspect of a game. I've seen dice-pool games where the support character nearly doubled the dice pools of all the rest of the party. :) (Note: Being 'broken' in Rifts, at least, isn't necessarily the criticism it would be in other games, or even other SW settings. To an extent, everything's broken, the TW is just, IMNSHO, the biggest example on the block, at least over the long-term, because of the whole, "Now we can buy Edges" aspect.)


Sounds like enemies, when appropriate, should have their own Q then. When compared to what a Cyber Knight can do with the right free action trapped powers and how hard a melee focused Burster can hit. It seems mostly appropriate. The TW doesn't have the raw power of many of the other IFs, so he's just very skilled. And in the end, you can't be afraid to break your player's stuff every once in a while. With all that sick loot, someone's bound to try and take it or blow it up.

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Re: [Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

#159 Postby pkitty » Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:29 am

The Machine Maestro bonus is indeed awesome, but I'd actually say it's a necessary balancing effect to keep the TW IF attractive. Keep in mind that all of the TW's "powers" are actually just gear that anyone could buy in this setting!

TW: "Ha! I start the game with a cloak of invisibility and flight-board."

MARS: "Me too, from the EI&MG table."

TW: "Huh. Well, I'm going to spend an Edge to acquire a teleportation harness."

Crazy: "An Edge? Okay, but I bought one with credits over at the Black Market last session. Want to just borrow it?"

So really, all that the TW has going for her are the Machine Maestro bonuses and the ability to create new TW devices (both on the fly and in the form of long-term upgrades). And don't get me wrong -- those things are amazing! But I'd argue that anything less would make the IF feel kind of pointless.
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Freemage
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Re: [Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

#160 Postby Freemage » Fri Mar 10, 2017 11:36 am

pkitty wrote:The Machine Maestro bonus is indeed awesome, but I'd actually say it's a necessary balancing effect to keep the TW IF attractive. Keep in mind that all of the TW's "powers" are actually just gear that anyone could buy in this setting!

TW: "Ha! I start the game with a cloak of invisibility and flight-board."

MARS: "Me too, from the EI&MG table."

TW: "Huh. Well, I'm going to spend an Edge to acquire a teleportation harness."

Crazy: "An Edge? Okay, but I bought one with credits over at the Black Market last session. Want to just borrow it?"

So really, all that the TW has going for her are the Machine Maestro bonuses and the ability to create new TW devices (both on the fly and in the form of long-term upgrades). And don't get me wrong -- those things are amazing! But I'd argue that anything less would make the IF feel kind of pointless.


Hm... Interesting take. I'd say part of the notion is 'just how available are custom-designed TW items, if you're not a TW yourself and don't have one in the group?" It's one thing to pull out the book-standard items--they obviously are available on the market. Still, as a GM, I certainly wouldn't make them available 'at cost'. A 100% mark-up would probably be my baseline for custom gear, and then I'd still be making the NPC Extra with No Wild Die make the Build Roll--no refunds for failed design (players who want the TW to offer a guarantee will probably end up paying a LOT more money, as the TW needs to make certain he doesn't end up out-of-pocket for materials).

All of that, of course, is part of the GM's view of things.


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