[Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

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ValhallaGH
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Re: [Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

#181 Postby ValhallaGH » Fri Apr 14, 2017 3:48 pm

@ Freemage: It's only done at -2 to all rolls, -4 for spells. The character is only taking two actions that count for MAP (two spells, or PPE draw and one spell).
Additionally, exalted quickness allows the character to ignore 2 MAP during each turn. So, if that is successfully cast then the summon ally is done with only a -2 because Strain. On the second turn, there is no penalty.
(I've learned a lot about exalted quickness. My two-fisted custom D-Bee (extra action) demi-god player took AB (Super Powers) with Master of Magic, and quickness is his most used power. If he grabs Improved Frenzy, he'll make four melee attacks each round, plus one other action, all with no penalties.)
(The Darth Maul knock-off cyber-knight uses Tricky Fighter, Charge, Improved Frenzy, and Two Fisted & Ambidextrous just about every round. Plus a free action casting of deflection and boost Trait (Spirit) in the first round. The other (Master Psionic) cyber-knight will often cast quickness on Diet Maul to give him a second turn.)

@ Ndreare: M.A.R.S. characters only get 3 HJ rolls. Even with the F&G result, that's only 5 total. Either Smarts or Spirit is only d10, because you've only got 5 attribute points and every other resource is already claimed.
Mirror Selves have all their attributes lowered one die type. Including their Expert (Spellcasting). With a d12+1, no bennies, and no Wild Die, they're on a 16.7% chance of failure, or 83.3% chance of success (not bad) with no other penalties. Include the MAP and they're on a 41.7% chance of failure, or a 58.3% chance of success - expect seven to succeed on any given casting, with eight as the "high average". Assuming one becomes Shaken with each casting attempt, you can expect to summon with 7 of them; five experienced soldiers each gives you the expectation of 35 soldiers to attack with (I'd recommend giving them L-20 laser rifles; RoF 4 means they can roll four Shooting dice with no recoil penalty, no chance of Critical Failure, and 3d6+1, AP 2 is pretty solid damage against anything without M.D.C. Armor).
Comes out to 2 Wild Card rolls, 25-ish extra caster rolls, and 140-ish extra attack rolls.
Sounds like the best use of Mirror Self I've heard of.
I'd recommend dropping the boost Trait action. To cast invisibility. First because it's a great defensive power, and second because the image of your caster turning into a small army is pretty cool. 8) Really obnoxious, but cool looking.
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Re: [Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

#182 Postby Freemage » Fri Apr 14, 2017 4:18 pm

ValhallaGH wrote:@ Freemage: It's only done at -2 to all rolls, -4 for spells. The character is only taking two actions that count for MAP (two spells, or PPE draw and one spell).
Additionally, exalted quickness allows the character to ignore 2 MAP during each turn. So, if that is successfully cast then the summon ally is done with only a -2 because Strain. On the second turn, there is no penalty.
(I've learned a lot about exalted quickness. My two-fisted custom D-Bee (extra action) demi-god player took AB (Super Powers) with Master of Magic, and quickness is his most used power. If he grabs Improved Frenzy, he'll make four melee attacks each round, plus one other action, all with no penalties.)
(The Darth Maul knock-off cyber-knight uses Tricky Fighter, Charge, Improved Frenzy, and Two Fisted & Ambidextrous just about every round. Plus a free action casting of deflection and boost Trait (Spirit) in the first round. The other (Master Psionic) cyber-knight will often cast quickness on Diet Maul to give him a second turn.)


Ah, looking at it, I see my mistake--my write-up shouldn't have counted the first spellcasting (since extra arms grants the extra action). So -2/-4. Not... insurmountable, but still pretty brutal given the number of rolls being made. But yes, Exalted Quickness does have that 'hey, take yet another freakin' free action' thing going on, which is, indeed, brutal as hell.

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Re: [Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

#183 Postby Ndreare » Fri Apr 14, 2017 4:23 pm

ValhallaGH,
He is a Personal Concept so he got four rolls on MARS table and 3 on the HJ (I still messed up and did 4+2 instead of 3+2)

The attributes came from the following
Agility starts d4 +1 attribute point
Strength starts d4
Smarts starts d6 +2 attribute points +1 MARS Table
Spirit starts d6 +2 attribute points +1 MARS Table
Vigor starts d4 +1 MARS table

So it looks like his strength should be d4, but that is okay, he won't be rolling in strength.

On Mirror Selves I figured in the -1 to die type. That is why they rolled d12-1, based on d12+1 base value with -2 map.
For casting sleep that meant a 5 or higher in d12 created a sleep field (66.66% if 13 is 8.666666), I included 1 in 12 becoming shaken (8.33% of 13 is 1.08333) leaving 12 able to roll for mirror image. As normal failure to cast slumber will not prevent rolling for minions. If those rolling at d12-1 would result in the above ratios again for (66.66% if 12 is 8), I included 1 in 12 becoming shaken (8.33% of 12 is 1) leaving 8 minion groups arriving. I like your idea about the weapon selection, and agree True Invisibility or even Deflection would have been a way better pick for first spell. But the True Invisibility cost 10 PPE and that would reduce my base mirror image by ~3 and final minions by ~15.
Of course perhaps this build could be modified to include Common Bond, then my bennies could help.
Do you see something that could be axed to make room? Perhaps only level headed instead of improved? But then I was hoping he could get a Joker because in a two joker deck he had a ౩ in 54 chance of getting one.

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Re: [Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

#184 Postby Ndreare » Fri Apr 14, 2017 4:36 pm

Edited based on feedback.

ValhallaGH
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Re: [Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

#185 Postby ValhallaGH » Fri Apr 14, 2017 5:38 pm

Ndreare wrote:ValhallaGH,
He is a Personal Concept so he got four rolls on MARS table and 3 on the HJ (I still messed up and did 4+2 instead of 3+2)
...
So it looks like his strength should be d4, but that is okay, he won't be rolling in strength.

Yeah, the two points I mentioned. :) It's okay man, we all make mistakes.

Ndreare wrote: 5 or higher in d12 created a sleep field (66.66% if 13 is 8.666666)

For example, I mistakenly used 5 as a failure in my calculations. Which makes your expected 8 successes more correct.
It also raises the number of shooting dice to 160. :o
The correct level of invisibility depends upon what you're facing. If it doesn't have thermal vision, sonar, lidar, or super-smelling then regular Invisibility should be fine.
For a caster, I'd rather have MOM than Improved Level Headed. You can drop the staff result (great item but ... ) and use your Seasoned to get another Power Points. Giving you 30 natural PPE (and 15 for your clones). If you have to keep the staff, then you're choosing between Wizard (reduce power cost by 1 up to 79.2% of the time, or 59.2% with -2 penalty) and More Power (+5 PPE, +2.5 for dupes). For a human, More Power is probably the better choice long-term, but for d'norr I think Wizard might actually be the better call (maximum PPE; humans cap at 35, d'norr at 40, with AB (Magic)).
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Re: [Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

#186 Postby Freemage » Fri Apr 14, 2017 6:11 pm

The staff can never be acquired going forward without GM fiat, so best to take it when you can. (It's seriously the best roll on the charts, IMNSHO.)

And I'd say Wizard can wait, in comparison to More Power; this is a PP-intensive build, and he'll be maxing out his expenditures a LOT. Again, it's a case of how it plays out in the long run; you can always squeeze Wizard in someplace, but extra PPE have a finite cap.

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Re: [Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

#187 Postby Ndreare » Fri Apr 14, 2017 6:21 pm

I am thinking with the Rediculous high casting skill Wizard is more important than Improved Level Headed. This character needs every drop of PPE, so I think the extra PPE and Wizard are both needed.
With 1+13 guys rolling 1/3 of them will get the benefit of Wizard possibly more.
But only one go at initiative.

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Re: [Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

#188 Postby ValhallaGH » Fri Apr 14, 2017 6:47 pm

One way to make this guy actually playable is to share your small army of Extras with the rest of the party. If you've got 5 players and 1 GM, each of the players can control a fifth of the soldiers, and anyone that wants to can control some of the mirrors. That makes the successes of the summons into the successes of all the players (if not their characters).
It also moves all those Extras across multiple Initiative draws. Which can be a literal PC life saver.
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Re: [Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

#189 Postby Ndreare » Fri Apr 14, 2017 7:22 pm

I would never consider him as a Player. But as I am currently the GM of every Rifts game I am in. I can totally use him as a villain.

Perhaps to on Young and have the players hear roommates of the terrible kid who has dominated a local town near a Ley Line. Then they will have to try and figure out how to stop him socially because I don't have a group that could take him in combat in they lost the unit.

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Re: [Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

#190 Postby JurneeJakes » Tue Apr 18, 2017 3:15 pm

Can Burrow be cast on a target, dragged underground, then left there? Seems like a quick way to get a GB out of the fight for awhile, not to mention a horrible way to die considering how long the pilot can survive in the suit.

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Re: [Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

#191 Postby Freemage » Tue Apr 18, 2017 3:21 pm

JurneeJakes wrote:Can Burrow be cast on a target, dragged underground, then left there? Seems like a quick way to get a GB out of the fight for awhile, not to mention a horrible way to die considering how long the pilot can survive in the suit.


A similar question was asked awhile back. Burrow can be cast on an unwilling target (note that this still requires a touch-attack to hit; easy to make, but it means getting your squishy Mage/Psion up close and personal to a big shiny robot), but the target is in charge of their own movement; you'd need to find some other way to force them into the ground--good luck with that if you're not also a Power/Robot Armor type.

In addition, Burrow is one of those powers, like Flight and Wall Walker, that may require the Mega version to be cast on a suit of Power Armor.

Mind you, the notion of a GB pilot who died by entombment and then becomes some sort of revenant would be pretty wicked.

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Re: [Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

#192 Postby Ndreare » Tue Apr 18, 2017 3:22 pm

JurneeJakes wrote:Can Burrow be cast on a target, dragged underground, then left there? Seems like a quick way to get a GB out of the fight for awhile, not to mention a horrible way to die considering how long the pilot can survive in the suit.

As said above, The official ruling is tqhat the target would gain control if the borrow power.

However, TK allows you to smash people around.

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Re: [Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

#193 Postby JurneeJakes » Tue Apr 18, 2017 3:34 pm

Freemage wrote:
JurneeJakes wrote:Can Burrow be cast on a target, dragged underground, then left there? Seems like a quick way to get a GB out of the fight for awhile, not to mention a horrible way to die considering how long the pilot can survive in the suit.


A similar question was asked awhile back. Burrow can be cast on an unwilling target (note that this still requires a touch-attack to hit; easy to make, but it means getting your squishy Mage/Psion up close and personal to a big shiny robot), but the target is in charge of their own movement; you'd need to find some other way to force them into the ground--good luck with that if you're not also a Power/Robot Armor type.

In addition, Burrow is one of those powers, like Flight and Wall Walker, that may require the Mega version to be cast on a suit of Power Armor.

Mind you, the notion of a GB pilot who died by entombment and then becomes some sort of revenant would be pretty wicked.


I don't see anywhere that it states a target of Burrow must be touched; rather it has a range of Smarts x2. Also, I discovered that Boost Trait can apparently be stacked with multiple castings, making over powering a Glitter Boy (or even Robot Armor) in raw strength pretty easy if you have enough Power Points. So grappling a target, casting Burrow on both of you, then expending the ISP to increase the range ten fold, and suddenly you're a mile underground where you can cancel the power on your target.

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Re: [Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

#194 Postby Freemage » Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:22 pm

JurneeJakes wrote:
Freemage wrote:
JurneeJakes wrote:Can Burrow be cast on a target, dragged underground, then left there? Seems like a quick way to get a GB out of the fight for awhile, not to mention a horrible way to die considering how long the pilot can survive in the suit.


A similar question was asked awhile back. Burrow can be cast on an unwilling target (note that this still requires a touch-attack to hit; easy to make, but it means getting your squishy Mage/Psion up close and personal to a big shiny robot), but the target is in charge of their own movement; you'd need to find some other way to force them into the ground--good luck with that if you're not also a Power/Robot Armor type.

In addition, Burrow is one of those powers, like Flight and Wall Walker, that may require the Mega version to be cast on a suit of Power Armor.

Mind you, the notion of a GB pilot who died by entombment and then becomes some sort of revenant would be pretty wicked.


I don't see anywhere that it states a target of Burrow must be touched; rather it has a range of Smarts x2. Also, I discovered that Boost Trait can apparently be stacked with multiple castings, making over powering a Glitter Boy (or even Robot Armor) in raw strength pretty easy if you have enough Power Points. So grappling a target, casting Burrow on both of you, then expending the ISP to increase the range ten fold, and suddenly you're a mile underground where you can cancel the power on your target.


Gah, made a mistake on the Burrow range.

Note that you have to cast Burrow twice (otherwise, you're going to drop the entire effect, so you'll be underground without the ability to move, too), separately, plus those stacking Boost Traits, all of which start imposing penalties as you get to the maintenance portion of things.

Say you start by upping your Strength from a modest d8 (we'll assume you're fairly beefy for a mage/psion) to Glitterboy+ levels, then cast Burrow on yourself, then come up underneath him, cast Burrow on him, drag him underground, the leave the Burrow to end.

So, you'll need to cast Exalted Boost Trait at least twice (assuming Raises on both castings) to get yourself to Strength d12 + 6. Then you'll need to cast Greater Burrow on yourself, with the range increase, then Greater Burrow on your opponent at 'normal' speed. 20 ISP, assuming you made all the casting rolls even with the -2 MAP (or, if you're casting one effect a round to avoid the MAP, you're at 21 ISP, as you're now maintaining the first Boost Trait).

You need to cast Greater Burrow on your opponent in order to affect the Power Armor; you need to cast Greater Burrow on yourself or, even with the ISP-charged boost to range (and ergo speed), you'll still be slower than he is with the baseline Burrow.

Now, you need to grapple him and drag him with you. This is going to be two rounds in itself, unless you want to take a MAP on the contested roll (and remember, you only have a +2 on him at the moment).

And if he breaks free at any point during the grapple? He's likely to be able to zoom back up to the surface before the spell wears off (you can reduce this risk by only grappling right before his Burrow drops, but that means you run the risk of not succeeding on the first Grapple check and having to pay even more ISP for maintenance while you try to drag him down).

And if a bad initiative card screws you, at some point during this sequence, he's got decent odds to get an opportunity to punch you while you're both underground. This will hurt, especially since it's unlikely your Psion is also a Martial Artist, and thus suffers from the Unarmed Defender penalty. So you might BOTH end up dead down there.

Now, that said--if you can pull off the sequence of rolls, with no hitches? Sure, you've pulled it off. It's just not some ultra-powered deathstrike that has no defense.

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Re: [Savage Rifts] Loopholes, Min-Maxing and other concepts for Fun and Profit

#195 Postby JurneeJakes » Tue Apr 18, 2017 5:59 pm

Good to know, though Full Environmental armor would be enough to give you a few rounds to be underground after pulling someone under. The GB was an extreme example of course, and using the trick on regular combatants such as another caster that (you'd hope) doesn't have Burrow as well.

As another trick, using Tiny Yet Mighty, would explosives that were on your person still have the same damage output once they leave your hand?


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