[SR] Techno-Wizards Items

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Freemage
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[SR] Techno-Wizards Items

#1 Postby Freemage » Sun Feb 26, 2017 6:10 am

Has anyone reverse-engineered the TW items in the book to determine how many Mod slots they've already had applied? It matters pretty badly if you're playing the party's Q....

ValhallaGH
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Re: [SR] Techno-Wizards Items

#2 Postby ValhallaGH » Sun Feb 26, 2017 8:44 am

I'm aware of one for combat mage armor, and this thread.
Neither are comprehensive.
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Re: [SR] Techno-Wizards Items

#3 Postby Freemage » Sun Feb 26, 2017 1:12 pm

Head-desk

So I decided to tackle the project myself. The armors weren't too horrible, though I had to cope with multiple suits that had +3 armor enhancements (LLW Medium, CK Medium), and the apparent cost of armor granting you +2 Pace/+1" Leaping is... 30-40K Credits.

Then I got to the weapons. I figured picking the closest book weapon to the base stats--so Vibro Blades for MD TW weapons and regular swords for non-MD TW weapons made sense for close combat stuff, for instance....

Battle Fury Blade has... 10 Enhancements:
  • Base Item: Chain Long Sword
  • +2 AP (1 Minor) 5K
  • +2 Fighting (2 Minor) 10K
  • 3 Edges; 1 @ Novice, Seasoned, Veteran (3 Major) 120K
  • +4 Armor (2 Minor) 10K
  • Enchanted Silver Trapping (1 Minor) 5K
  • 1/2 Weight (Minor) 5K

That's just not possible under the rules. OTOH, it also costs 20x what it should, so maybe that's a factor. Let's move onto the next one:

Draining Blade
  • Base: Long Sword
  • +2 Damage (2 Minor) 10K
  • 2 Novice Powers activated via skill roll (2 Major) 200K
So, that's not too bad at all,4 trappings, total cost 210K... waitaminute. The book cost of the Draining Blade is 3 million Credits. A TW could undercut the list price by 2/3, and still come out almost 800K up per weapon. Oh, and my TW's homebrew version should only cost 1 PPE to charge for 3 rounds, rather than the book-listing's 3 PPE, because extra damage doesn't normally cost extra PPE to activate.

So, moving on...

Earth Shaker
  • Base: Vibro-Hammer (as Vibro-Knife)
  • 1 Seasoned Power activated by Fighting Roll (1 Major) 200K
  • 1 Seasoned Power activated w/ Arcane Skill Roll (1 Major) 40K
Near as I can tell, this is being sold at a loss of a bit over 50K once you pay for the base item--and again, it costs more to activate than it should.

Flaming Sword
  • Base: Vibro-Sword
  • Fire Trapping 5K
Okay, this is the baseline enchanted weapon... and again, assuming the Vibro-Sword base cost of 12K, it's got a total mark-up of 70K on a base cost to make of just under 20K.

Light Blade
  • Base Item: Short Sword
  • Sunlight Trapping (1 Minor) 5K
  • +2 Damage (2 Minor) 10K
  • 1/4 Weight (2 Minor) 10K
  • AP 3 (1.5 Minor) 7.5K
Okay, ignoring the 'half-a-minor-upgrade' aspect of an AP 3 weapon, we still have a 20K weapon costing some 32.5K to produce....

After getting through the Close Combat Weapons, I'm starting to think Stormspire is using the cost of Draining Blades to subsidize the production of Light Blades and Earth Shakers....

Okay, let's look at the Ranged Weapons.

Fireburst Rifle
  • Base Item: No clue. It's got the range of an NG-L5, the damage of a Wilk's 447, and a RoF that's better than both. I briefly looked at the automatic grenade launcher, but then the damage is way too low.
  • Fire Trapping (1 Minor) 5K
  • SBT Damage (1 Major, maybe?)
I have no idea how to produce this weapon using TW conversion. In theory, I suppose it could handle 1 more Minor Upgrade and 5 more Major Upgrades, assuming the TW is Legendary.

Iceblast Shotgun
  • Base Item: Double-Barreled Shotgun
  • Ice Trapping (5K)
If we go with the x10 rule for weapon costs from the core book, then this is underpriced; otherwise, it's got a nice 300% mark-up.


Lightning Rod
  • Base Item: Again, I couldn't find a close match to the Range/Damage/RoF stats
  • Armor Power (1 Major)
  • Master of Magic Edge (for Armor Power only) (1 Major)
  • Fire-ish Trapping
Okay, theoretically, this should be a 50K item based on the modifications, but the trapping actually makes it weaker than it would be otherwise, so.... yeah, not gonna sweat the book price.

Shard Pistol
  • Base Item: AK-47
  • Novice Power activated with Shooting Roll (Major) 20K
  • Ice Trappings (Minor) 5K
Okay, so using a real AK-47 would have a longer range, but otherwise, this is pretty on-the-nose.

About this time, I kinda gave up.

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Re: [SR] Techno-Wizards Items

#4 Postby malikaithered » Sun Feb 26, 2017 3:00 pm

I've decided to focus on making my own devices for the most part. here is one

TW Healer's Kit- The base line Trauma kit this device was based on is described as a few steps beyond a regular first aid kit, this conversion takes that progression a few leagues further. When charged (1 PPE/ISP per hour) it provides a +3 to healing skill checks as well as off setting upto -2 of penalties (baseline +1 and off set -2). It also Provides access to the Healing and Succor powers as well as storing 20 PPE that can be used to fuel them and power the kit. As with the mundane version it requires a d4 skill in Healing to use. (3 lbs, 112,860 credits)

Base Item (Trauma Kit, 2600 credits)
TW Conversion- 260 credits
Minor Upgrade (+1 to Heal rolls) 5k
Minor Upgrade (+1 to Heal rolls) 5k
Major Upgrade (Add Power- Succor) 20k
Major Upgrade (Add Power- Healing) 20k
Major Upgrade (Store PP +10PPE) 30k
Major Upgrade (Store PP +10PPE) 30k

ValhallaGH
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Re: [SR] Techno-Wizards Items

#5 Postby ValhallaGH » Sun Feb 26, 2017 4:27 pm

Note: All TW items produce magical effects. Being a magical weapon is a part of the conversion, not a feature that must be paid for; I'm pretty sure that the "Apply an arcane Trapping to the device" option is for specific Trappings such as +2 AP for certain Fire/Heat trappings, or making a weapon deal Celestial Silver damage.

My takes follow.

Battle Fury Blade
Base: Vibro Sword
Minor: Trapping: Silver; 2x +1 to Fighting. (3)
Major: Other Major Upgrade: additional damage die (cost up to GM); 3x Add Edge (N,S,V for +120K); Other Major Upgrade: +4 Armor (cost up to GM). (5)

Draining Blade
Base: Longsword
Minor: 2x +1 Damage. (2)
Major: 2x Power (boost/lower Trait, slow). (2)

Earth Shaker
Base: Club
Minor: +1 Damage (Str + d6). (1)
Major: Other Major Upgrade: Mega damage (cost up to GM); 2x Power (havoc and pummel; both Seasoned). (3)

Flaming Sword
Base: Vibro Sword
Minor: 2x reduced Weight (blade is pure fire). (2)
Major: none. (0)

Light Blade
Base: Katana
Minor: 2x reduced Weight (blade is pure light); AP +1; Trapping: Light - Sunlight in SBT of the blade. (4)
Major: none. (0)

Fireburst Rifle
Base: M-16 assault rifle
Minor: Other Minor Upgrade: small range increase for +1 weight. (1)
Major: Other Major Upgrade: bullet into fireballs, trade AP for SBT, turn 2d8 into 3d6. (1)

Iceblast Shotgun
Base: Double-Barrel Shotgun
Minor: Trapping: Cold/Ice - Slow. (1)
Major: none. (0)

Lightning Rod
Base: SFC Submachine Gun
Minor: reduced Weight; 2x +1 Damage (2d8); remove Semi-Auto and 3RB, reduced ammo. (3) with major drawbacks.
Major: Other Major Upgrade: RoF +1. (1)

Shard Pistol
Base: Generic laser pulse pistol
Minor: 3x +1 Damage (2d8+1); Other Minor Upgrade: +50% ammo (36). (4)
Major: Other Major Upgrade: RoF +1; Power (lower Trait, cold trapping). (2)

TK Machine Gun
Base: SFC Light MG
Minor: 4x +1 Damage; half ammo. (4) with drawback
Major: none. (0)

TK Revolver
Base: Colt Dragoon
Minor: +1 Damage; 4x AP +1. (5)
Major: none. (0)

TK Submachine Gun
Base: SFC Submachine Gun
Minor: 2x +1 Damage; minor weight and ammo reductions. (2)
Major: none. (0)

Water Weapons
Base: Conventional toy water gun
Minor: Trapping: magical water; Other Minor Upgrade: SA or 3RB; Other Minor Upgrade: improved range. (3)
Major: none. (0) pistol. Other Major Upgrade: additional damage die. (1) rifle.

I didn't price things, but everything seems to fit within the limits of the TW Conversion rules. The two weapons with prices in the millions of credits are either Legendary (Battle Fury Blade) or terrifyingly good at killing the creators (Draining Blade), which makes the mark-up somewhat reasonable.
Last edited by ValhallaGH on Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Freemage
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Re: [SR] Techno-Wizards Items

#6 Postby Freemage » Sun Feb 26, 2017 7:34 pm

ValhallaGH wrote:Note: All TW items produce magical effects. Being a magical weapon is a part of the conversion, not a feature that must be paid for; I'm pretty sure that the "Apply an arcane Trapping to the device" option is for specific Trappings such as +2 AP for certain Fire/Heat trappings, or making a weapon deal Celestial Silver damage.


Agreed. I specifically only did trappings that had some sort of effect.

My takes follow.

Battle Fury Blade
Base: Vibro Sword
Minor: Trapping: Silver; 2x +1 to Fighting. (3)
Major: Other Major Upgrade: additional damage die (cost up to GM); 3x Add Edge (N,S,V for +120K); Other Major Upgrade: +4 Armor (cost up to GM). (5)


Ah, so you converted the +4 Armor into a single Major instead of two Minor? Interesting. Of course, this still leaves us trying to account for the fact that this thing is more expensive than many vehicles.

Draining Blade
Base: Longsword
Minor: 2x +1 Damage. (2)
Major: 2x Power (boost/lower Trait, slow); 2x Other Major Upgrade: activate powers with Fighting, range is target of Fighting (cost up to GM); 2x Other Major Upgrade: using powers is free action as part of Fighting attack with sword (cost up to GM). (6)


The activate power thing is in the base rules, just after the Major Modifications list:

TLPG, Pg 107 wrote:*The Techno-Wizard can only install powers
and Edges of his Rank or less. Embedded
powers must be from the Techno-Wizard
powers list (though he doesn’t have to
actually know them). For fve times the
cost and +1 to the Power Point cost to
charge the device, the power activates as
part of another action (an atack roll for a
weapon or roll to activate another power)
using the Trait result of the primary action
as its own.
The user must still spend
Power Points before making the roll, and
a failure on the primary action means the
power fails as well

It's not an upgrade on its own, it's just a modifier of the existing two Power upgrades--each is five times more expensive, but still only takes one mod slot. So it's not a Legendary item the way the Battle Fury Blade is, unless I'm reading the above paragraph completely wrong.

Earth Shaker
Base: Staff
Minor: none. (0)
Major: Other Major Upgrade: Mega damage (cost up to GM); 2x Power (havoc and pummel; both Seasoned); Other Major Upgrade: activate pummel with Fighting as part of attack. (4)

Again, the Pummel power is just 5x normal cost, per the rules in TLPG. One reason I prefer to just re-skin Vibro-Weapons is that they conveniently do Mega-damage already, but I suppose making an oldtech weapon MD capable via modification is another way to go.

Flaming Sword
Base: Vibro Sword
Minor: 2x reduced Weight (blade is pure fire). (2)
Major: none. (0)


I think we agreed on this one completely.

Light Blade
Base: Katana
Minor: 2x reduced Weight (blade is pure light); AP +1; Trapping: Light - Sunlight in SBT of the blade. (4)
Major: none. (0)


And... now I'm embarassed, because I somehow got the idea that AP 2 was a Minor upgrade, when it actually doesn't exist at all. I suppose in most cases, AP 1 is still +1 damage. So, yeah, I like yours better here.

Fireburst Rifle
Base: M-16 assault rifle
Minor: Other Minor Upgrade: small range increase for +1 weight. (1)
Major: Other Major Upgrade: bullet into fireballs, trade AP for SBT, turn 2d8 into 3d6. (1)


I think this is the one that really made me despair. There's just no guideline for making an attack into a BT, let alone converting die-types.

Iceblast Shotgun
Base: Double-Barrel Shotgun
Minor: Trapping: Cold/Ice - Slow. (1)
Major: none. (0)


Another where we agree.

Lightning Rod
Base: SFC Submachine Gun
Minor: reduced Weight; 2x +1 Damage (2d8); remove Semi-Auto and 3RB, reduced ammo. (3) with major drawbacks.
Major: Other Major Upgrade: RoF +1. (1)


I want to note, that since I've been griping so much, I do love the idea of many of these weapons. It's just frustrating trying to figure out how they built some of them. This is another one--again, there's no mechanic for adding drawbacks or removing advantages, meaning that if a PC wants to build something similar, theirs is actually probably going to end up superior to the book's, and often with a similar or even lower price.

Shard Pistol
Base: Generic laser pulse pistol
Minor: 3x +1 Damage (2d8+1); Other Minor Upgrade: +50% ammo (36). (4)
Major: Other Major Upgrade: RoF +1; Power (lower Trait, cold trapping). (2)


I'm definitely liking RoF +1 as a Major Upgrade.

TK Machine Gun
Base: SFC Light MG
Minor: 4x +1 Damage; half ammo. (4) with drawback
Major: none. (0)

TK Revolver
Base: Colt Dragoon
Minor: +1 Damage; 2x AP +2. (3)
Major: none. (0)

TK Submachine Gun
Base: SFC Submachine Gun
Minor: 2x +1 Damage; minor weight and ammo reductions. (2)
Major: none. (0)


I think I gave up just as it got straightforward. Of course, now you're listing AP 2 as a Minor upgrade, like I did originally.
Water Weapons
Base: Conventional toy water gun
Minor: Trapping: magical water; Other Minor Upgrade: SA or 3RB; Other Minor Upgrade: improved range. (3)
Major: none. (0) pistol. Other Major Upgrade: additional damage die. (1) rifle.


Yeah, these are cool concepts.
I didn't price things, but everything seems to fit within the limits of the TW Conversion rules. The two Legendary weapons are the only ones with prices in the millions of credits, which makes sense for the limited supply.

Like I said, though, the Draining Blade shouldn't require a Legendary craftsman--Seasoned will do.

And I'm typing that line in severe trepidation, because I know that 99 times out of 100, I end up losing rules debates with you, so I'm fully expecting you to come back with chapter and verse proving me wrong. Ah, well.

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Re: [SR] Techno-Wizards Items

#7 Postby Brickulos » Sun Feb 26, 2017 8:28 pm

Freemage wrote:I didn't price things, but everything seems to fit within the limits of the TW Conversion rules. The two Legendary weapons are the only ones with prices in the millions of credits, which makes sense for the limited supply.

Like I said, though, the Draining Blade shouldn't require a Legendary craftsman--Seasoned will do.

And I'm typing that line in severe trepidation, because I know that 99 times out of 100, I end up losing rules debates with you, so I'm fully expecting you to come back with chapter and verse proving me wrong. Ah, well.


No you're correct

TLPG p. 107, For five times the
cost and +1 to the Power Point cost to
charge the device, the power activates as
part of another action (an attack roll for a
weapon or roll to activate another power)
using the Trait result of the primary action
as its own. The user must still spend
Power Points before making the roll, and
a failure on the primary action means the
power fails as well.

ValhallaGH
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Re: [SR] Techno-Wizards Items

#8 Postby ValhallaGH » Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:30 am

TW items are one of my big weaknesses when it comes to Savage Rifts. :lol:
I missed the activation note, so thanks for pointing that out.
I keep forgetting that AP isn't one of the standard listed upgrades. That said, +1 AP being equal to +1 damage is fair, especially in an armor heavy setting like Rifts earth.

Looking at the existing TW items, the notes "Other Minor Upgrades as allowed by the GM," and "Other Major Upgrades as allowed by the GM (Cost: Varies)," are very relevant.

I'll adjust my previous post.

The Earth Shaker is pretty solid as a weapon, but it's got no AP meaning it probably isn't based on a Vibro Weapon. Plus, dealing Mega Damage feels like an Other Major Upgrade level of magic.

The Fireburst Rifle feels like a weaponized blast and bolt combination. RoF 3, 3d6, SBT. Not sure exactly what the rationale was, but it feels pretty balanced.

Drawbacks are absolutely arbitrary, and possible to abuse, but they're only allowed by negotiation with the GM. As long as the GM is paying attention, and the drawbacks make sense, it should be okay.
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Re: [SR] Techno-Wizards Items

#9 Postby Brickulos » Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:40 am

ValhallaGH wrote:I keep forgetting that AP isn't one of the standard listed upgrades. That said, +1 AP being equal to +1 damage is fair, especially in an armor heavy setting like Rifts earth.


I cribbed some standards from Shaintar's enchantment system. There 2 points of AP was treated the same as a point of damage, just as canceling 2 points of penalties is the same as a +1 to a skill.

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Re: [SR] Techno-Wizards Items

#10 Postby Freemage » Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:10 am

Brickulos wrote:
ValhallaGH wrote:I keep forgetting that AP isn't one of the standard listed upgrades. That said, +1 AP being equal to +1 damage is fair, especially in an armor heavy setting like Rifts earth.


I cribbed some standards from Shaintar's enchantment system. There 2 points of AP was treated the same as a point of damage, just as canceling 2 points of penalties is the same as a +1 to a skill.


Normally, I'd agree with you, but Valhalla's point about this being an armor-heavy setting (unlike most fantasy settings) is also worth noting--it's actually pretty rare that you end up NOT using at least low levels of AP at full effect. Anything up to 5 points is probably fine to count as one-to-one equivalency. It's only after that that you start even occasionally trumping the bog-standard suits of Body Armor and Greater Armor spells.

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Re: [SR] Techno-Wizards Items

#11 Postby ValhallaGH » Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:29 am

Brickulos wrote:
ValhallaGH wrote:I keep forgetting that AP isn't one of the standard listed upgrades. That said, +1 AP being equal to +1 damage is fair, especially in an armor heavy setting like Rifts earth.


I cribbed some standards from Shaintar's enchantment system. There 2 points of AP was treated the same as a point of damage, just as canceling 2 points of penalties is the same as a +1 to a skill.


As Freemage said, normally I would agree with this, but Savage Rifts isn't normal. Body armor less than +5 is rare in this setting, so the functional difference between +1 damage and +1 AP is non-existent in 99% of instances in Savage Rifts. Which I why I say they are equivalent.
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Re: [SR] Techno-Wizards Items

#12 Postby Freemage » Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:54 pm

Resurrecting this because it's been brought to my intention that the Draining Blade is technically impossible to build under the RAW, because slow is not on the TW spell-list.

Which brings up an intriguing line of thought. The HJ tables allow for the addition of a Novice Power to your Powers Known. It's been debated whether or not the new power is considered 'on the list' for purposes of TW creation. If we say no, then the Draining Blade must be a Splurgoth item, and there's a Splurgoth TW IF out there that has slow on its list, and they're making money hand-over-fist.

If we say that the new Power IS part of the list of eligible Powers for crafted items, then we get into a very interesting territory--a small number of TWs, who happen to have that particular HJ result AND taken slow as their power-of-choice, could indeed craft this thing. The markup is then explained as a consequence of it being only created by a very small handful of specialist TWs.

Right, time to get Clint's final word on this.

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Re: [SR] Techno-Wizards Items

#13 Postby Xanty » Fri Apr 14, 2017 7:17 pm

Freemage wrote:Resurrecting this because it's been brought to my intention that the Draining Blade is technically impossible to build under the RAW, because slow is not on the TW spell-list.

Which brings up an intriguing line of thought. The HJ tables allow for the addition of a Novice Power to your Powers Known. It's been debated whether or not the new power is considered 'on the list' for purposes of TW creation. If we say no, then the Draining Blade must be a Splurgoth item, and there's a Splurgoth TW IF out there that has slow on its list, and they're making money hand-over-fist.

If we say that the new Power IS part of the list of eligible Powers for crafted items, then we get into a very interesting territory--a small number of TWs, who happen to have that particular HJ result AND taken slow as their power-of-choice, could indeed craft this thing. The markup is then explained as a consequence of it being only created by a very small handful of specialist TWs.

Right, time to get Clint's final word on this.


I see another option... have the item give the Edge: New Power - Slow. This can make ALL sorts of interesting variations... just at a higher PPE cost to activate
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Re: [SR] Techno-Wizards Items

#14 Postby Freemage » Tue Apr 25, 2017 9:12 am

viewtopic.php?p=462365#p462365

Official word: If you get the 8-10 result on the Magic & Mysticism table, you do get to add that to your power list for purposes of imbuing items. ANd of course, items made this way would be of higher rarity, which would account for an increased cost, since only a handful of TWs would be able to make them.

Unfortunately, Slow is Seasoned, so this STILL doesn't work. *Headdesk*


Xanty wrote:
I see another option... have the item give the Edge: New Power - Slow. This can make ALL sorts of interesting variations... just at a higher PPE cost to activate


This is clever, but the problem is that then it would still require the user to make the arcane skill roll to actually use the Power (ie, as if they had the Edge, rather than using the item to cast the power). So it's not the same effect, precisely.

Damn, I was so close....


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