[SR] Anti-Monster Conversion

Information and comments on all Pinnacle licensed Savage Settings. Please note the product with an abbreviation in the Subject line (ex. [SR] for Savage Rifts®, [6G] for The Sixth Gun, [SK] for Solomon Kane, and so on). Note: Licensee settings by 3rd parties are below.

Moderators: PEG Jodi, The Moderators

Message
Author
User avatar
MarcelloM
Novice
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2017 12:16 am
Contact:

[SR] Anti-Monster Conversion

#1 Postby MarcelloM » Fri Mar 31, 2017 3:34 pm

Here you go, one of the most ludicrously powerful R.C.C.s/O.C.C.s in Rifts (not broken, in the absence of magic, but absurdly strong), the Anti-Monster from Rifts South America.

Image

For those that aren't aware, the Anti-Monster in Palladium Rifts is a Combat Cyborg, if the procedure was performed by a good-aligned alien intelligence and still left you maybe 20% meat-sack. It's essentially a Dragon Hatchling on crack, giving up the extra magic/psionic powers and arguably some utility to become a physical powerhouse, with more base MDC toughness than a hatchling even before the MDC armor it gets to pick for free, and more physical strength than an ADULT dragon. So I ran with that, using the FWD Hatchling IF as a framework and then sprinkling in bits of various other frameworks that fit.

Fortunately, as I was looking through the original entry in the South America book, I realized it had a boat-load of complications I could use to compensate for its raw power. The biggest one, Rejection, I designed to be absolutely brutal, even more so than in Palladium Rifts. So, on the whole, it should fit the same role in a party as a FWD Hatchling. If it still needs nerfing, taking away its starting armor (and not allowing it to do a Hero's Journey roll on the Body Armor table) should work wonders, as that'll force it to wait until it has a lot of money to afford armor at double price, due to Heavy.

And yeah, I'm using the same format as Barbelith Rising's Godling conversion because I'm an unoriginal bastard.

Would love any feedback or criticism!

https://docs.google.com/document/d/12zO ... sp=sharing
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Phasma Felis
Seasoned
Posts: 215
Joined: Mon May 31, 2004 9:45 am
Location: Lexington, KY, USA

Re: [SR] Anti-Monster Conversion

#2 Postby Phasma Felis » Mon Apr 03, 2017 6:24 pm

Awesome, nice job!

I don't see their regeneration ability in there--in Palladium it's 4d6 MD/minute. In SR I might give them a natural healing roll either once per hour or once per minute. It's probably worth noting that their metal parts are alive and heal naturally; presumably healing magic would work, and I guess the Heal skill rather than Repair.

Leaving out the handful of spells they can cast in Palladium seems reasonable. PR gives lots of things a random handful of spells, and SR sometimes keeps them (Fennodi, Simvan) and sometimes doesn't (Lyn-Srial, Psi-Stalkers). Giving them some sort of stealth bonus (for Chameleon/Shadow Meld), and/or the ability to glow as per the Light power with the Sunlight trapping, would fit their theme but doesn't seem "mandatory".

You said "When resisting magic or psionic powers, the Anti-Monster treats the appropriate stat as a d8." I'm not clear what that means. They always roll d8 to resist arcane powers instead of Vigor/Spirit/Smarts whatever? Why?

For their armor I'd be inclined to go the same way as the Combat Cyborg and say worn armor of any kind does not stack with their built-in armor/toughness bonuses. They're already a lot tougher than a Glitter Boy; letting them wear Crusader armor on top of that doesn't really fit with the way Savage Rifts does things. Remember you don't have to maintain the same relative strength/toughness/etc. relationships as PR did. :)

In Palladium they have "retractable claws or retractable forearm vibro-blades"; just as a flavor thing, I think I'd let them have built-in vibro-blade vambraces for free. You've got them as starting equipment already, so there's no real mechanical bonus to saying they're part of the cyborg body. Leave it to the player whether that represents talons, forearm blades, battle gauntlets, armor spikes, etc.

I think you meant to say that the -4 Strength/Agility/Vigor penalty for rejection applies to all linked skills and derived statistics (Parry and Toughness). If so, you might want to say that explicitly.

I'm a little iffy on the Rejection mechanic. Semi-inevitable doom as a balancing mechanic is very much in-theme, given the Juicer, but the Juicer can see it coming and has some small control over it. "1 in 36 chance of dying after each session" is awfully random and arbitrary. (I realize it's not automatic death, but "-4 to everything for 1d6 months" will basically mean "roll up a new character" in many campaigns.) You might bite it after the first session, or you might luck out and never face any real penalty at all. That just doesn't seem fun to me. I dunno, YMMV. Not sure how to do it better, off the top of my head, but mellowing out their sky-high strength and resilience might reduce the need for such a vicious balancing mechanic.

If you do keep it, I might remove the Rejection roll penalty for additional cyberware. Players who want extra bionics already have to spend their precious chargen Edges; I wouldn't penalize them further.

ValhallaGH
Legendary
Posts: 8293
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:15 pm

Re: [SR] Anti-Monster Conversion

#3 Postby ValhallaGH » Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:32 pm

Wow.
So, the concept is a magical pseudo-cyborg that can go toe-to-toe with anything supernatural, with a solid chance of victory.
... That's going to be tricky to balance.

Inherently Magical - Look at the Arcane Resistance Edge. Getting a +2/+4 to resist supernatural powers, or imposing a -2/-4 on Trait rolls to affect you, is one hell of a resistance ability.
M.D.C. Armor - Need to note that it doesn't stack with worn armor. And if you intend to make it stack then this is a deal-breaker. Because custom TW body armor gets really stout.
Unarmed Combat - Given that they're supposed to have implanted vibro weapons of some kind, just make it deal Str+d10, AP 4, Mega Damage.
Fear - Nothing in the Iconic Framework explains how this creature is "the whole village just ran for the hills, crapping their pants" scary. That's the level of supernatural terror usually imposed by demons, but you lack an explanation for it.
Environmental Resistance - You can clarify this. "Immune to normal sources of cold and heat. They are resistant to Mega Damage energies."
Vampire Resistance - Not sure if this is justified, but since vampires are a big deal in the origin region, I'll play along. Flat immunity to monster abilities is pretty rare; a bonus to resist is much more in keeping (Critical Failure should be a problem). Also, the Arcane Resistance edges would give this effect already, though you could have a stacking bonus, kind of like the Mind Melter psychic resistance.
First Into Battle - First, this is a stronger version of Pace increase than most Frameworks get. Second, that's not how changes to Running die types usually work.
Mighty - Vigor d10 is tough but not impressive. Strength d12+8 is stupid-high; actually too high. I'd strongly suggest changing to Vigor d12 and Strength d12+6. The Vigor change brings it on par with a conventional Combat Cyborg. The Strength change makes it at least as strong as a Size +8 Dragon Hatchling, and if it wants to be stronger than that, it can be. Players shouldn't get everything for free.
Psychic Sense + Supernatural Sense - So, they have dog boy noses? That's ... yeah, I'm confused. Also, it shouldn't work given all the supernatural resistance built into this thing. Anything as magically resistant as this Framework should also be killing its own ability to pick up sensitive magical energy.
Nigh Immortality - How does this even work? Dragons feed off of magic and continually regenerate themselves. Combat Cyborgs only live for about two centuries, because a human brain only lasts for so long.

Rejection - This is an utterly random "your character died or became useless" mechanic. Which is no fun. Putting a "character death arc" mechanic into this could be cool (see Juicer), but this is a horrible mechanic for it; also, it's completely at odds with the Nigh Immortality.
Cybernetics - I'm not sure allowing them at all is the correct choice. But if you're married to allowing them then they should be allowed at any time. Although imposing penalties is appropriate.
Enemies - The things it's trying to kill are also trying to kill it? Not a real drawback. Enemy is a good drawback for having a large organization out to kill you, but when "evil monsters that want to kill everyone" want to kill you, it isn't worth noting.

If I didn't mention something, that's because it seems awesome.
"Got a problem? I've got the solution: Rocket Launcher."
"Not against a Servitor."
"... We're all gonna die."

ValhallaGH
Legendary
Posts: 8293
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:15 pm

Re: [SR] Anti-Monster Conversion

#4 Postby ValhallaGH » Tue Apr 04, 2017 11:31 am

As part of trying to wrap my brain around this, I've decided to do an SPC breakdown. Depending upon the results, I'll offer advice on either salvaging the existing game mechanics or rebuilding to match the core concept (supernatural cyborg for killing big, scary monsters).

Anti-Monster [88]
2 Hero's Journey rolls: roughly one edge each [4 Power Points]
Inherently Magical: Two unique features. One lets them use TW devices, but only gives 2 PPE, estimated cost 1 PP. The other gives them a d8 Trait when resisting powers, estimated cost 1 PP. [2 Power Points, estimated]
M.D.C. Armor: Armor ten levels, Heavy Armor, and Toughness seven levels [21 Power Points]
Size +1: Growth one level, Monster [1 Power Points]
Unarmed Combat: Attack, Melee one level, Heavy Weapon [3 Power Points]
Fear: Fear, Scary [1 Power Points]
Environmental Resistance: Resistance (fire) five levels, Resistance (cold) five levels. [10 Power Points]
Vampire Resistance: total immunity to a specific power from a specific type of creature, total immunity to one magical disease [2 Power Points, estimated]
First Into Battle: Edge, partially stacks with itself [2 Power Points]
Mighty: Super Strength twelve levels, uncapped potential, Super Vigor three, uncapped potential [32 Power Points]
Psychic Sense: Essentially the same as expanded awareness from the LLW/MM/Mystic. [3 Power Points]
Supernatural Sense: +2 on Psychic Sense rolls; as Heightened Senses super sense. [1 Power Points]
Nigh-Immortality: Ageless, Doesn't Eat, Doesn't Breathe, Immune to Disease, Immune to Poison. [6 Power Points]

Total Cost = [88 Power Points]
And unlike the similarly potent Flame Wind Dragon Hatchling, this beast has a few unprecedented game mechanics, incredible synergy, and no character creation limitations. If a player wanted to, one of these could start with a Strength d12+16 as a zero experience Novice; that's strong enough to juggle Titans. That means an "unarmed" attack deals an average of 27.3 damage, or 29.3 with Wild Attack, or 33.5 with Wild Attack and a Raise on the attack roll. That's strong enough to knock down a Forager robot armor with a single serious punch. Give it a Chain Greatsword, Giant-Sized Vibro-Sword, or Thunderer Combat Hammer and you're looking at average damages of 35.3/37.3 AP 2, 31.2/33.2 AP 4, and 41.8/43.8 for a normal hit (without / with Wild Attack). A hit with a Raise adds 4.2 to that average, putting the Thunderer hit at an insane 48.0 average Wild Attack damage - with an average damage roll and a lucky Critical Hit, Hyper-Strong Jerk could one hit kill a TR-001 Titan Combat Robot. Pick up Giant Killer from an HJ roll, and a TW conversion for that hammer, and even Greater Demons can be killed by an average damage roll by a Novice Anti-Monster.
Thankfully physical armor doesn't stack, or those rolls on the Body Armor table could make it as horrific defensively as it is offensively. A bare minimum version, like Hyper-Strong Jerk, still has Toughness 35 (20) M.D.C., making it tougher than most robot armors; a Toughness focused one could have Toughness 42 (20) M.D.C., being tougher than a Behemoth robot armor. By Heroic rank (60 XP) that could be a 44 (20) M.D.C., giving the same overall Toughness, with less armor, as a Titan combat robot, with none of the size drawbacks.
Last edited by ValhallaGH on Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Got a problem? I've got the solution: Rocket Launcher."
"Not against a Servitor."
"... We're all gonna die."

ValhallaGH
Legendary
Posts: 8293
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:15 pm

Re: [SR] Anti-Monster Conversion

#5 Postby ValhallaGH » Tue Apr 04, 2017 11:57 am

Wow, that's kind of insane, with the large numbers that just keep being larger.
It's also pretty boring, having much the same problem as One Punch Man. It's stupidly-good at combat, able to bring Boom Gun levels of pain to close combat; unfortunately, it's about as good at anything else as a basic Combat Cyborg. And unlike our full conversion friends, the Anti-Monster is limited to slow improvements (i.e. normal Advancement) and getting new gear. Even TW gear is of limited utility, since an Anti-Monster doesn't meet the requirements for any of the PPE improving edges (Power Points, Rapid Recharge, etc.); those starting 2 PPE are all they'll ever have.

I'm going to have to do some research and ruminating before proposing an alternative. But I'll get to work on it, and see what I can put together.
"Got a problem? I've got the solution: Rocket Launcher."
"Not against a Servitor."
"... We're all gonna die."

ValhallaGH
Legendary
Posts: 8293
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:15 pm

Re: [SR] Anti-Monster Conversion

#6 Postby ValhallaGH » Tue Apr 04, 2017 10:15 pm

So after some research and some fiddling, I've got this: http://gunrocksgamingrules.pbworks.com/w/page/116919033/Conversion%3A%20Anti-Monster
Obviously still not 100%, but I feel like it's a solid starting point for discussion.

I'll do a detailed breakdown later. Time for sleep.
"Got a problem? I've got the solution: Rocket Launcher."
"Not against a Servitor."
"... We're all gonna die."

ValhallaGH
Legendary
Posts: 8293
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:15 pm

Re: [SR] Anti-Monster Conversion

#7 Postby ValhallaGH » Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:32 am

Okay, time for the breakdown of my take.

Anti-Monster [67]
3 Hero's Journey rolls: roughly one edge each [6 Power Points]
Bionic Augmentation: Super Agility one level, Super Strength six levels, Super Vigor three levels, all uncapped. [23 Power Points]
Cybernetic TW Enhancements: only unique ability is the claws, approximately Attack, Melee one level, AP twice, Heavy Weapon, lethal balanced by a die type increase. [5 Power Points]
High Performance Legs: fleet-footed Edge. [2 Power Points]
M.D.C. Armor: Armor four levels, Heavy Armor, Toughness three levels. [11 Power Points]
More Machine: combat reflexes Edge, Regeneration two levels, Immune to Disease, Immune to Poison, Doesn't Breathe, Doesn't Eat. [9 Power Points]
Size +1: Growth one level, Monster. [1 Power Points]
Monster Slayer: two Edges. [4 Power Points]
Mystic Bane: one Edge. [2 Power Points]
Psychic Sense: Heightened Senses two levels, limited to magic and psionics. [1 Power Points]
Unarmed Combat: Attack, Melee one level, Heavy Weapon. [3 Power Points]

Total Cost = [67 Power Points] assuming all physical Attributes start at d6, which is implied by the Gray Matter ability.
This version is less front-loaded than the source, but the new Iconic Edges give it the ability to reach Robot Armor durability. And while it's more powerful than the Combat Cyborg, it also has more drawbacks, so that seems to balance out. Offensively, the combination of Champion and Giant Killer make it an excellent demon-killer. Most powerful demons are Size +4 or larger, and Size +4 is large enough to trigger Giant Killer (+1d6 damage). Any supernaturally evil foe also triggers Champion, for +2 Damage and +2 Toughness. Finally, a Novice can't have more than Strength d12+10, assuming all Hindrance points, Shadow of Self, and all three HJ rolls increase Strength. So it's stronger than a Combat Cyborg, more dangerous to monsters, but less agile, slower to upgrade, and lacking the technological versatility (no Core Electronics package, no sensory enhancement cybernetics).
I removed the power usage since the original reduced a minor psion or mage to 1d4 PPE - just enough to still be alive. Given that the subject's personal power was channeled into the augmentations, that makes a lot of sense. In Savage Worlds terms, any ability to use TW items would be lost; using TW items requires an Arcane Background or special ability that most people don't have.

That's actually a lot better than I was expecting when I woke up. Unless there are points I'm missing, I'm going to call this a successful Beta, in need of some final polish before being complete.
"Got a problem? I've got the solution: Rocket Launcher."
"Not against a Servitor."
"... We're all gonna die."

Saevus
Seasoned
Posts: 119
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2015 11:54 am

Re: [SR] Anti-Monster Conversion

#8 Postby Saevus » Wed Apr 05, 2017 7:57 pm

BEHOLD, the mind of VallhallaGH! :D

ElkieNoOni
Novice
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2016 11:40 am

Re: [SR] Anti-Monster Conversion

#9 Postby ElkieNoOni » Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:26 pm

ValhallaGH wrote:...and all three HJ rolls increase Strength.


Where do HJ rolls increase traits? Maybe I'm just blind, but I haven't found anywhere stating you can trade rolls for trait increases.

ValhallaGH
Legendary
Posts: 8293
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:15 pm

Re: [SR] Anti-Monster Conversion

#10 Postby ValhallaGH » Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:29 am

The Cybernetics table includes Bionic Strength, which stacks without limit, other than Strain.
"Got a problem? I've got the solution: Rocket Launcher."
"Not against a Servitor."
"... We're all gonna die."

User avatar
Sitting Duck
Legendary
Posts: 5623
Joined: Thu May 15, 2003 6:47 am
Location: Podunk Junction, State of Confusion

Re: [SR] Anti-Monster Conversion

#11 Postby Sitting Duck » Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:57 pm

The M.A.R.S. Fortune & Glory table also offers straight up attribute boosts FWIW.
The rabbit is cuddly. Kids like little cuddly sidekicks. I mean... The rabbit... It's a time-tested... Okay, the rabbit bites.
Blog: http://sittingduck1313.livejournal.com
The Gamer's Codex Reviewer

ElkieNoOni
Novice
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2016 11:40 am

Re: [SR] Anti-Monster Conversion

#12 Postby ElkieNoOni » Wed Apr 19, 2017 2:29 pm

ValhallaGH wrote:The Cybernetics table includes Bionic Strength, which stacks without limit, other than Strain.


Derp. I don't know why I didn't think of that. Thanks!

ValhallaGH
Legendary
Posts: 8293
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:15 pm

Re: [SR] Anti-Monster Conversion

#13 Postby ValhallaGH » Wed Apr 19, 2017 2:35 pm

Sitting Duck wrote:The M.A.R.S. Fortune & Glory table also offers straight up attribute boosts FWIW.

Sure, but F&G was irrelevant to both proposed Frameworks, not being M.A.R.S.
Great table, which is why F&G is a key balance component for M.A.R.S. characters.

ElkieNoOni wrote:I don't know why I didn't think of that. Thanks!

You're welcome.
And welcome to the forum!
"Got a problem? I've got the solution: Rocket Launcher."
"Not against a Servitor."
"... We're all gonna die."


Return to “SW Pinnacle Licensed Settings”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest