New Race: Experiment 626

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voidstate
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New Race: Experiment 626

#1 Postby voidstate » Tue Apr 04, 2017 6:43 am

Who knows how they got to Earth? But now they're here can someone please find them a way home! :)

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hz- ... sp=sharing
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ValhallaGH
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Re: New Race: Experiment 626

#2 Postby ValhallaGH » Tue Apr 04, 2017 7:20 am

Wow. That's broken.
Cute, but broken.

First, you're ignoring the Savage Rifts race creation rules; the rules all other races in the setting are balanced against. I can understand that, since this would be a +8 race by those rules.
Second, it gets M.D.C. armor for free. It's very powerful, and not justified by the source material.
Third, all of the resilience is armor, which can be ignored by AP weapons. Fire a medium laser at this thing and it only has Toughness 1 + 0.5*Vigor. Against things that can hurt it, it is squishier than a Dead Boy.
Fourth, it deals Mega Damage for free. While on a destructive rampage it can kill anything (and potentially everything).
Fifth, Destructive gives it the most powerful melee combat edge in the game, as a "drawback". Going Berserk is highly advantageous, and this guy can trigger it by spending a Benny for anything. Made a Soak roll? You also get to go Berserk. Used Extra Effort on a Trait roll? You also get to go Berserk. And if you spend a Benny on the Smarts roll to resist then you have to immediately make another Smarts roll to resist another check. It's weird, as much benefit as drawback, and subtly encourages the player to sit quietly in the corner unless they want to ruin the fun of everyone else at the table. ... So, about half of players will be stuck in the corner an the other half will be ruining the game.
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Re: New Race: Experiment 626

#3 Postby Brickulos » Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:43 am

Gotta agree with Valhalla on this one. At the very least you have to use the race creation in the Savage Rifts book. And Mega Damage and Armor for free is absurd. Stitch should have extra points in Toughness, high Vigor and Strength, an inability swim, and a weakness to water.

Freemage
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Re: New Race: Experiment 626

#4 Postby Freemage » Tue Apr 04, 2017 10:00 am

Actually, with 'must be a Crazy' as part of the Restrictions, I think you're better off going full-on IF; that's far better than trying to force-cram the Racial abilities. And you can trim out the bits of the Crazy that don't fit (like minor Psionic) in order to better match the concept.

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Re: New Race: Experiment 626

#5 Postby Brickulos » Tue Apr 04, 2017 2:01 pm

While I agree a custom IF would work for Stitch, I tried my hand at a racial template using the rules in TLPG and I think it works pretty well.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7unrzu7xil01i ... .docx?dl=0

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Re: New Race: Experiment 626

#6 Postby Freemage » Tue Apr 04, 2017 2:17 pm

Brickulos wrote:While I agree a custom IF would work for Stitch, I tried my hand at a racial template using the rules in TLPG and I think it works pretty well.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7unrzu7xil01i ... .docx?dl=0


Hmm... You seem to have upped the value of both Cannot Speak (normally a -1) and Destructive (basically a Monologuer re-skin, which is cool as a concept). Sink Like a Stone really doesn't seem like the equivalent of a Major Hindrance, either.

For Destructive to be pricier than Monologuer, I think it would be necessary for the character to be required to actually smash/shred a piece of gear they own, or perhaps owned by an ally if it's been left unattended, selected randomly (put a table in the write-up, figuring Body Armor, Ranged Weapon, Close Combat Weapon, Other Gear makes sense, though you could use 2d4 to make it a bell-curve)--this inflicts a level of Technical Difficulty, automatically, on the item. This means they, or one of their companions, is going to constantly be forced to spend time repairing Glitches, in order to keep from having to shell out cash on upkeep. That seems to fit the 'feel' of the race, based on the source material, too.

That would bring us down to 2 points unaccounted for.

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Re: New Race: Experiment 626

#7 Postby Brickulos » Tue Apr 04, 2017 2:44 pm

Freemage wrote:
Brickulos wrote:While I agree a custom IF would work for Stitch, I tried my hand at a racial template using the rules in TLPG and I think it works pretty well.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7unrzu7xil01i ... .docx?dl=0


Hmm... You seem to have upped the value of both Cannot Speak (normally a -1) and Destructive (basically a Monologuer re-skin, which is cool as a concept). Sink Like a Stone really doesn't seem like the equivalent of a Major Hindrance, either.

For Destructive to be pricier than Monologuer, I think it would be necessary for the character to be required to actually smash/shred a piece of gear they own, or perhaps owned by an ally if it's been left unattended, selected randomly (put a table in the write-up, figuring Body Armor, Ranged Weapon, Close Combat Weapon, Other Gear makes sense, though you could use 2d4 to make it a bell-curve)--this inflicts a level of Technical Difficulty, automatically, on the item. This means they, or one of their companions, is going to constantly be forced to spend time repairing Glitches, in order to keep from having to shell out cash on upkeep. That seems to fit the 'feel' of the race, based on the source material, too.

That would bring us down to 2 points unaccounted for.


Destructive is more expensive because its Monologuer and is essentially a quirk outside of combat. I'll spell it out more clearly. The difference between Difficulty Speaking and Cannot Speak, is that you can't get a translator to help you. 626s can speak and it do poorly, which penalizes every social skill. A race with cannot speak just has to buy a translator and their problems are over.

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Re: New Race: Experiment 626

#8 Postby ValhallaGH » Tue Apr 04, 2017 3:49 pm

Brickulos wrote:While I agree a custom IF would work for Stitch, I tried my hand at a racial template using the rules in TLPG and I think it works pretty well.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7unrzu7xil01i ... .docx?dl=0

Cool!
It's got some issues, but still, cool.

If I don't mention it then assume I thought it was okay.
Destructive - While it seems to be both Monologuer and Quirk, you'll want to emphasize that second sentence somehow. It's easy to overlook that it also applies out of combat.
Difficulty Speaking - At most, this is a -1 ability. The total inability to speak with most people is a -1; this is basically re-skinned Outsider.
Sink Like A Stone - Automatically getting the worse result on Swimming checks is probably not a -2 ability. It might be, but that feels forced. Should be reconsidered, at least. Fitting, though.
Vengeful - As a Major hindrance (the -2 version), they don't just "get even". They get murderous. Tone it back to Vengeful (Minor), a -1 ability, to better fit the source. Seriously, no one should be getting murdered over stolen Twinkies.

Overall, cool. Still needs some balance work, but I like how close it is and how well it fits.
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"... We're all gonna die."

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Re: New Race: Experiment 626

#9 Postby Brickulos » Tue Apr 04, 2017 4:08 pm

ValhallaGH wrote:Destructive - While it seems to be both Monologuer and Quirk, you'll want to emphasize that second sentence somehow. It's easy to overlook that it also applies out of combat.


Fixed it.

ValhallaGH wrote:Difficulty Speaking - At most, this is a -1 ability. The total inability to speak with most people is a -1; this is basically re-skinned Outsider.


The penalty is intended to apply to Taunt and Intimidation as well. Does that make a difference?

ValhallaGH wrote:Sink Like A Stone - Automatically getting the worse result on Swimming checks is probably not a -2 ability. It might be, but that feels forced. Should be reconsidered, at least. Fitting, though.


Okay, you're the second to say that so I'll downgrade it.

ValhallaGH wrote:Vengeful - As a Major hindrance (the -2 version), they don't just "get even". They get murderous. Tone it back to Vengeful (Minor), a -1 ability, to better fit the source. Seriously, no one should be getting murdered over stolen Twinkies.


Good point, I'll do that.

ValhallaGH wrote:Overall, cool. Still needs some balance work, but I like how close it is and how well it fits.


I'm open to suggestions.

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Re: New Race: Experiment 626

#10 Postby ValhallaGH » Tue Apr 04, 2017 5:04 pm

Brickulos wrote:
ValhallaGH wrote:Difficulty Speaking - At most, this is a -1 ability. The total inability to speak with most people is a -1; this is basically re-skinned Outsider.


The penalty is intended to apply to Taunt and Intimidation as well. Does that make a difference?

Sadly, it does not.
There are a lot of non-verbal ways to intimidate and taunt. Anyone that's lived with a cat has experienced both of those. :roll: A penalty to talking is not worse than an inability to speak. Yet it is still just a -1 (if also illiterate then we reach a cumulative -2).

Yeah, basically a Minor Hindrance.

... I think I may be overthinking this. :?
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Re: New Race: Experiment 626

#11 Postby Brickulos » Tue Apr 04, 2017 5:13 pm

ValhallaGH wrote:
Brickulos wrote:
ValhallaGH wrote:Difficulty Speaking - At most, this is a -1 ability. The total inability to speak with most people is a -1; this is basically re-skinned Outsider.


The penalty is intended to apply to Taunt and Intimidation as well. Does that make a difference?

Sadly, it does not.
There are a lot of non-verbal ways to intimidate and taunt. Anyone that's lived with a cat has experienced both of those. :roll: A penalty to talking is not worse than an inability to speak. Yet it is still just a -1 (if also illiterate then we reach a cumulative -2).

Yeah, basically a Minor Hindrance.

... I think I may be overthinking this. :?


Maybe? I feel like that's kinda what are RPGs are about though. You make a good point though. I'm not sure what else there is to balance then.

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Re: New Race: Experiment 626

#12 Postby Freemage » Tue Apr 04, 2017 6:23 pm

Brickulos wrote:
Freemage wrote:
Brickulos wrote:While I agree a custom IF would work for Stitch, I tried my hand at a racial template using the rules in TLPG and I think it works pretty well.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7unrzu7xil01i ... .docx?dl=0


Hmm... You seem to have upped the value of both Cannot Speak (normally a -1) and Destructive (basically a Monologuer re-skin, which is cool as a concept). Sink Like a Stone really doesn't seem like the equivalent of a Major Hindrance, either.

For Destructive to be pricier than Monologuer, I think it would be necessary for the character to be required to actually smash/shred a piece of gear they own, or perhaps owned by an ally if it's been left unattended, selected randomly (put a table in the write-up, figuring Body Armor, Ranged Weapon, Close Combat Weapon, Other Gear makes sense, though you could use 2d4 to make it a bell-curve)--this inflicts a level of Technical Difficulty, automatically, on the item. This means they, or one of their companions, is going to constantly be forced to spend time repairing Glitches, in order to keep from having to shell out cash on upkeep. That seems to fit the 'feel' of the race, based on the source material, too.

That would bring us down to 2 points unaccounted for.


Destructive is more expensive because its Monologuer and is essentially a quirk outside of combat. I'll spell it out more clearly. The difference between Difficulty Speaking and Cannot Speak, is that you can't get a translator to help you. 626s can speak and it do poorly, which penalizes every social skill. A race with cannot speak just has to buy a translator and their problems are over.


You and I read the line in Cannot Speak about being able to communicate via electronic devices differently--I'm picturing someone typing things on a tablet with a voice emulator, not using a translator--because the same things that make the species unable to communicate with other people will make them unable to communicate with most machines, at least verbally. Now, in some cases, this might not block social rolls (Persuasion, for instance, in a relatively calm encounter). OTOH, it is NOT going to allow, say, verbal-based Tricks or Tests of Will--you just don't have the time to use that in combat.

I guess I've always regarded Monologuer as a Quirk tag-along, too. It's not like the character doesn't go on and on out of combat, too (that would be a weird way to play it, honestly). However, at least it's called out explicitly now--and since you can't stack identical Hindrances for points, it takes one of the most common Minor tack-ons off the table for character creation.

voidstate
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Re: New Race: Experiment 626

#13 Postby voidstate » Wed Apr 05, 2017 7:45 am

Wow. That's broken.
Cute, but broken.


Thanks. :D

First, you're ignoring the Savage Rifts race creation rules; the rules all other races in the setting are balanced against. I can understand that, since this would be a +8 race by those rules.


Huh? I used those rules. The costs are in brackets after the advantage or disadvantage. It totals to +2 overall.

Second, it gets M.D.C. armor for free. It's very powerful, and not justified by the source material.


Hm. I seem to remember Stitch surviving some pretty remarkable damage.

Third, all of the resilience is armor, which can be ignored by AP weapons. Fire a medium laser at this thing and it only has Toughness 1 + 0.5*Vigor. Against things that can hurt it, it is squishier than a Dead Boy.


Yeah. maybe it's too squishy. I'll swap some armour for toughness.

Fourth, it deals Mega Damage for free. While on a destructive rampage it can kill anything (and potentially everything).


What's the fun of being destructive if you can't smash the really big stuff?

Fifth, Destructive gives it the most powerful melee combat edge in the game, as a "drawback". Going Berserk is highly advantageous, and this guy can trigger it by spending a Benny for anything. Made a Soak roll? You also get to go Berserk. Used Extra Effort on a Trait roll? You also get to go Berserk. And if you spend a Benny on the Smarts roll to resist then you have to immediately make another Smarts roll to resist another check. It's weird, as much benefit as drawback, and subtly encourages the player to sit quietly in the corner unless they want to ruin the fun of everyone else at the table. ... So, about half of players will be stuck in the corner an the other half will be ruining the game.


Ah, I didn't mean the Berserk edge, just, y'know, going crazy. Edited.

And maybe when you spend a benny is too much? I just thought it would make for an interesting decision. Do I spend a benny to soak but maybe lose a few rounds destroying inanimate objects? I'll steal Brickulos's idea instead. :D

Thanks for the feedback.
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Re: New Race: Experiment 626

#14 Postby Brickulos » Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:02 am

Valhalla's point is that Mega Damage and Armor aren't something a race should get for free. Plus, you appear to be using a mix of the SWDX race creation rules and those found in the TLPG. Since Strong and Inane both appear to be from SWDX.

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Re: New Race: Experiment 626

#15 Postby Brickulos » Wed Apr 05, 2017 7:25 pm

I made some changes. It should be balanced now.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7unrzu7xil01i ... .docx?dl=0

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Re: New Race: Experiment 626

#16 Postby ValhallaGH » Thu Apr 06, 2017 6:42 am

Seems to add up.
I'm amused by Fluffy the Cyber-Knight, but having access to Crazy is thematically appropriate, so the other remains a possibility.
Clever, adding All Thumbs and Bad Reputation. Both fit the source pretty well. 8)
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Re: New Race: Experiment 626

#17 Postby Brickulos » Thu Apr 06, 2017 7:32 am

ValhallaGH wrote:Seems to add up.
I'm amused by Fluffy the Cyber-Knight, but having access to Crazy is thematically appropriate, so the other remains a possibility.
Clever, adding All Thumbs and Bad Reputation. Both fit the source pretty well. 8)


Yeah, CyberKnight is what I thought of first as well. I'm surprised i didn't think of them sooner, both hinderances are obvious in retrospect.

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Re: New Race: Experiment 626

#18 Postby Phasma Felis » Thu Apr 06, 2017 3:28 pm

ValhallaGH wrote:Fourth, it deals Mega Damage for free. While on a destructive rampage it can kill anything (and potentially everything).
Fifth, Destructive gives it the most powerful melee combat edge in the game, as a "drawback". Going Berserk is highly advantageous, and this guy can trigger it by spending a Benny for anything. Made a Soak roll? You also get to go Berserk. Used Extra Effort on a Trait roll? You also get to go Berserk. And if you spend a Benny on the Smarts roll to resist then you have to immediately make another Smarts roll to resist another check. It's weird, as much benefit as drawback, and subtly encourages the player to sit quietly in the corner unless they want to ruin the fun of everyone else at the table. ... So, about half of players will be stuck in the corner an the other half will be ruining the game.

I read that as berserk (the state of mind) rather than Berserk (the game mechanic). In any case, it says they attack inanimate objects, so it's not really a bonus outside of the rare fight where smashing the scenery is tactically useful.

I agree that it could discourage players from spending Bennies at all. On the other hand, if you don't think occasionally flying into uncontrollable rages is fun, then you probably wouldn't be playing Stitch. :)

I'm not convinced that free MD on basic natural attacks is all that powerful. Most things with MD capacity have enough armor/toughness that Str+d6 is unlikely to hurt them, and more importantly, this is a setting where a bog-standard combat knife does Str+d6 AP4 MD and half the frameworks start with something even better. It's handy if you're forced to wrestle a light power armor while unarmed, but that's rare enough that I'm not sure I'd even make it worth +1.

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Re: New Race: Experiment 626

#19 Postby Freemage » Thu Apr 06, 2017 4:25 pm

Phasma Felis wrote:
ValhallaGH wrote:Fourth, it deals Mega Damage for free. While on a destructive rampage it can kill anything (and potentially everything).
Fifth, Destructive gives it the most powerful melee combat edge in the game, as a "drawback". Going Berserk is highly advantageous, and this guy can trigger it by spending a Benny for anything. Made a Soak roll? You also get to go Berserk. Used Extra Effort on a Trait roll? You also get to go Berserk. And if you spend a Benny on the Smarts roll to resist then you have to immediately make another Smarts roll to resist another check. It's weird, as much benefit as drawback, and subtly encourages the player to sit quietly in the corner unless they want to ruin the fun of everyone else at the table. ... So, about half of players will be stuck in the corner an the other half will be ruining the game.

I read that as berserk (the state of mind) rather than Berserk (the game mechanic). In any case, it says they attack inanimate objects, so it's not really a bonus outside of the rare fight where smashing the scenery is tactically useful.

I agree that it could discourage players from spending Bennies at all. On the other hand, if you don't think occasionally flying into uncontrollable rages is fun, then you probably wouldn't be playing Stitch. :)

I'm not convinced that free MD on basic natural attacks is all that powerful. Most things with MD capacity have enough armor/toughness that Str+d6 is unlikely to hurt them, and more importantly, this is a setting where a bog-standard combat knife does Str+d6 AP4 MD and half the frameworks start with something even better. It's handy if you're forced to wrestle a light power armor while unarmed, but that's rare enough that I'm not sure I'd even make it worth +1.

It also comes up against any creature that does have MDC (and often, those values are low enough that the attack might actually hurt it); likewise, magical types using Greater Armor. +5 MDC shuts down a non-MDC attacker completely, rather than just giving a considerable buff to defense. So overriding that does have a certain impact.

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Re: New Race: Experiment 626

#20 Postby ValhallaGH » Thu Apr 06, 2017 7:13 pm

Dealing Mega Damage is certainly worth a +1 racial ability (if not more). It is worth it precisely because it allows the character to hurt potentially anything, and in Savage Worlds if you're allowed to try then you can succeed spectacularly.
That's an important lesson for every Savage GM to remember. Otherwise you'll allow a roll, have it succeed wildly despite the odds, and then have to negate the result. Which leaves you looking like an ass, generally leaves the players in a foul mood, and reduces the fun of everyone.
"Got a problem? I've got the solution: Rocket Launcher."
"Not against a Servitor."
"... We're all gonna die."


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