[SR] Feedback Wanted

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Ndreare
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[SR] Feedback Wanted

#1 Postby Ndreare » Thu Apr 27, 2017 4:40 pm

Hello, I wanted some critical feedback on my attempt at a Iconic Framework for Nightspawn.

PS: Here is a link as board rules do not allow posting conversions directly on board. Nightspawn

Specifically I would like the kind of critical feedback frequently offered from ValhallaGH, Zadmar, and Freemage if possible. Pointing out errors and potential abuses. Once I get it clean I want to run a Nightbane game online.

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Re: [SR] Feedback Wanted

#2 Postby Freemage » Thu Apr 27, 2017 6:03 pm

Okay, my first thing is that you're confounding SPC "Power Points" with Core Rules Power Points, when really, they are very different things. SPC characters don't have a pool of power-points; they just have a set of specialized creation points that Pinnacle decided to call Power Points to create confusion. :P

Also, Master of Magic doesn't affect SPC powers, so that ability is ONLY useful if they take AB: Magic.

I'll post thoughts on how to better integrate them later on, after I've more of a chance to look it over.

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Re: [SR] Feedback Wanted

#3 Postby Ndreare » Thu Apr 27, 2017 6:09 pm

I used the Super Powers Companion to cost building the framework.
But the Nightspawn is intended to have Talents, which are traditional A style arcane background.

Kind of like how a Burster has both SPC styled fire powers and traditional style Psionics.

Do you think perhaps best could be using the "Race" framework as if the characters Morphus was a unique race each time?

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Re: [SR] Feedback Wanted

#4 Postby ValhallaGH » Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:07 pm

Wow, there's a lot to unpack here.
Aside: I've realized that my process is "Reaction, Analysis, Advice". This will be the Reaction phase, possibly with Analysis thrown in.

Hero's Journey: Three rolls with zero restrictions is unprecedented for a non-M.A.R.S. Framework. At least two rolls should be limited to a handful of tables that fit the broad archetype, leaving one more roll for "any except Psionic".
A new Arcane Background, easily overlooked because of formatting (not bold). The new AB has a new skill but doesn't list the related Attribute, has no backlash, and trapping limitations of Darkness and double cost for "defensive" powers (whatever those are). I don't really see the point of this - Dark Talents could just be the core Arcane Background (Super Powers) with some Darkness trappings.
Dark Sight - an undefined and non-standard ability. No way to evaluate this since the one place it exists (this IF) doesn't define it.
Immortality - Huh? Okay.
Morpheus Form - this is just confusing. What you seem to be aiming for is a Gimmick set of super powers, tied to changing form, with 14 PP of custom selections (I choose Absorption (Magic) with Energy Master and Matter Master, and Danger Sense every time, because it makes me virtually invincible), and a bunch of "standard' powers. (What is "Heavy" under Super Toughness?) So, confusing and potentially game breaking. :mrgreen:
Natural Arcane Might - "Be more awesome with your single Dark Talent!" Feels completely unnecessary.
Magical Diversity - "You know what? You're not OP enough. Go be a Wizard, too."
Raw Magic Force - You don't need the note about the second AB. It's a kind of magic, so Master of Magic allows it to use Mega Powers. The end.
Sense Night Bane - "Find your bros! Pork your own species!"

No complications or drawbacks besides Monstrous (avoidable, see Doll or just don't transform in town), Vulnerability to Darkblades (avoidable if you don't transform when fighting demons with magic weapons), and Gimmick (Morpheus Form). So, no complications or drawbacks worth worrying about.

Doll - You know that drawback that limits your power? You don't have that. Be broken.
Embracing the Morpheus - Is this supposed to be taken multiple times? Because it is not but reads like it was meant to be.
Unearthly Beauty - Here, play a succubus. Oddly, this is weaker than Doll because people can see through it.

Reaction - Deeply flawed design. Deeply flawed.
Lots of cool "drawbacks" that are actually optional, removing the story inherent to being a Nightbane. Tons of power - enough to make the Burster feel weak. The Morpheus Form gives 46 Power Points by itself, plus the various other abilities (Magical Diversity should be a 1 point ability) and the Hero's Journey rolls, comes to a total of 65 Power Points. Stronger than a Burster or Combat Cyborg, more flexible than a Glitter Boy, and better synergy than a Dragon. Definitely over powered.

I'll think about it before I start suggesting fixes.
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Re: [SR] Feedback Wanted

#5 Postby Freemage » Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:55 pm

Ndreare wrote:I used the Super Powers Companion to cost building the framework.
But the Nightspawn is intended to have Talents, which are traditional A style arcane background.

Kind of like how a Burster has both SPC styled fire powers and traditional style Psionics.

Do you think perhaps best could be using the "Race" framework as if the characters Morphus was a unique race each time?


Okay, so the character also has a "Better than the Mystic" combination of ABs? This also gives them a workaround to their Trapping limit on the Talents AB, since they just take AB: Magic, and then select 3 non-Darkness Trapping Powers.

The Customize Morpheus form means there's really one Best Build for this:

1: Hindrance Edges spent on Doll and AB: Magic.
2: Customize Morpheus points spent on Super Skill: Spellcasting and Super Skill: Talents (7 points each)
3: Select Powers: Talents are Puppet, Obscure and Dispel (Puppet and Dispel both have the Darkening Trapping from Darkness); Magic Powers are whatever you want from the LLW list. Obviously, anything that involves resisting your casting roll, or which gains a bonus from better targeting roll, is pretty ideal. Bolt, Mind Reading and Healing is probably a pretty solid build.


Assuming an otherwise even spread of stats:

Agil d8; Smts d8; Spir d8; Strg d8; Vigr d10
Spellcasting d12+7 (6 Skill Points); Talents d12+7 (6 skill points, assuming either Smts or Spir as linked attribute); Fighting d10; Shooting d4; Throwing d4
Pace: 6; Parry: 7; Tough 12 MDC; Cha -2

In any given combat, if there's a primary foe, step one is to cast Obscure and then Puppet. Step 2 is to make them kill their allies, or maybe themselves. Step 3 is to laugh at anyone using SDC weapons. If you get to Step 4, finish them.

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Re: [SR] Feedback Wanted

#6 Postby Ndreare » Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:59 pm

ValhallaGH wrote:...

Okay, edited a lot and trimmed it down a bit. Hopefully it is more workable. If the original setting they are basically at the same power level as dragons, and spend their time fighting supernatural horrors.

For limitations I am open to suggestions, their primary limitation originally is politics and being hunted, the same as this setting.

Would you be willing to offer more feedback?

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Re: [SR] Feedback Wanted

#7 Postby Ndreare » Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:08 pm

Freemage wrote:Okay, so the character also has a "Better than the Mystic" combination of ABs? This also gives them a workaround to their Trapping limit on the Talents AB, since they just take AB: Magic, and then select 3 non-Darkness Trapping Powers.

The Customize Morpheus form means there's really one Best Build for this:

1: Hindrance Edges spent on Doll and AB: Magic.
2: Customize Morpheus points spent on Super Skill: Spellcasting and Super Skill: Talents (7 points each)
3: Select Powers: Talents are Puppet, Obscure and Dispel (Puppet and Dispel both have the Darkening Trapping from Darkness); Magic Powers are whatever you want from the LLW list. Obviously, anything that involves resisting your casting roll, or which gains a bonus from better targeting roll, is pretty ideal. Bolt, Mind Reading and Healing is probably a pretty solid build.


Assuming an otherwise even spread of stats:

Agil d8; Smts d8; Spir d8; Strg d8; Vigr d10
Spellcasting d12+7 (6 Skill Points); Talents d12+7 (6 skill points, assuming either Smts or Spir as linked attribute); Fighting d10; Shooting d4; Throwing d4
Pace: 6; Parry: 7; Tough 12 MDC; Cha -2

Okay clarified a maximum skill bonus from Morphus and made other changes.
But honestly, I think GM intervention would have handled that. I honestly do not see how a physical form would make you better at Talents and Spellcasting, but just in case someone is going with the whole Cthulhu strange alieness makes you a better caster.

I do not know if you are familiar with the source, but do you think there could be other hindrances than political and being monstrous?

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Re: [SR] Feedback Wanted

#8 Postby Freemage » Fri Apr 28, 2017 12:30 am

Leaving it up to the GM to catch the issues is going to be a weak design decision. THe original version said, "Any Powers", so that's what I went with. If the idea is that they get purely physical powers, that should be stressed with a list of choices.

I looked up the wikipedia article. It suggests that the transformation happens at night; if that's the case, that would be a limitation on much of their abilities.

I do not own the sourcebook, so I can't actually give much advice on other possible hindrances, unfortunately.

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Re: [SR] Feedback Wanted

#9 Postby ValhallaGH » Fri Apr 28, 2017 8:15 am

Huh, a lot of changes.

Dark Talents - Still not sure why this needed to be a separate AB, instead of Super Powers. Still unclear which powers are "Defensive" - armor and deflection are obvious, but what about invisibility, intangibility, or damage field? Facade is undefined in the rest of the document.
Dark Sight - Why not simply say, "Ignore 4 points of lighting penalties"? Shorter, gives a hard limit, enough to ignore "locked in a cave with no light", and still lets lighting-based Obscure / Greater Obscure have some effect (-6 penalty, ignore 4, total -2 penalty remains). Or just a flat "Ignore all illumination penalties". Either way, non-darkness trappings of Obscure completely bypass this.
Natural Arcane Might - this is a +4 ability; it's the Power Points Edge (for PPE), twice. The Racial ability to get +5 PPE is for one specific Arcane Background, such as Magic, Miracles, or Weird Science. If the character doesn't grab that specific version of AB then they get nothing from that racial ability. The D'Norr racial ability of +5 PPE is a +2 racial ability.
Potential Magical Diversity - As I said before, this is a +1 ability. It's not as good as a real edge (+2) but it gives as much benefit as being immortal - it may not come up, but if it does then you can be certain that it is an advantage.
Raw Magic Force - Simpler and faster to say "Is a Master of Magic."
Sense Nightbane - Needs proofreading.

Morphus Form -
Transformation process - two rounds long, a multi-action. Spirit -2 to reduce to one round, with a Raise it becomes a Free action. So a Spirit roll at -6 to make it a Free action.
Customize - 10 points of racial abilities. Much less broken, though can still be pretty insanely powerful.
Monstrous - Pretty cool, but rendered pointless by two different Iconic edges.
Natural Combat Ability - It seems odd to me that this can't be used in the character's natural form. But whatever.
Regeneration - Go with Natural Healing rather than "recovery" (one of those is a game term). I'd recommend copying more of the text from the racial ability (it clarifies the Injury recovery very well).
Supernatural Physical Form - The unlimited growth doesn't make sense, given that these Attributes only apply when in the alternate form.
Super Toughness - Much clearer. With the physical form, that's +14 Toughness including the 6 Armor.
Vulnerable to Darkblades - Still only a -1 ability; equivalent to the Weakness (Minor) Hindrance.

Okay, how about an SPC2 style breakdown.
Nightbane [59]
2 Hero's Journey rolls: roughly one edge each [4 Power Points]
Arcane Background (Talents): one edge [2 Power Points]
Dark Sight: Heightened Senses two levels, low light and infravision [2 Power Points]
Immortality: Ageless [1 Power Points]
Morphus Form: see below [42 Power Points]
Customize Form - ten points of selections; racial abilities have the same cost as equivalent powers (10)
Natural Combat Ability - Super Skill three levels (3)
Regeneration - as the power, all levels plus regrowth, regrowth requires a successful Vigor roll to avoid permanent injuries (11)
Supernatural Physical Form - Super Attribute five levels, and three uncapped potential (13)
Super Toughness - Toughness six levels, Armor three levels (9)
Transformation - Gimmick hindrance, but less restrictive; probably a minor gimmick (-1)
Monstrous - extreme version of Ugly hindrance, basically a major hindrance (-2)
Vulnerable to Darkblades - Weakness minor hindrance, with penalty to Natural Healing (necessary, given the high level Regenration) (-1)
Natural Arcane Might: two edges [4 Power Points]
Potential Magical Diversity: can take a second Arcane Background, about half an edge [1 Power Points, estimated]
Raw Magic Force: one edge [2 Power Points]
Sense Nightbane: limited immunity to various deceptive abilities of Nightbane, probably equivalent power to Ageless [1 Power Points, estimated]
Total Cost = [59 Power Points] putting it on par with the Burster or Combat Cyborg. It's a very defensive set up, with a lot of synergy and empowering interactions between the various abilities (racial +2 on Talents and +2 on Spellcasting), and a player that chooses to focus on offense is going to be a magical powerhouse.

The Iconic edges all have issues. For example, Inhuman downgrades the Morphus Form from "Shoot On Sight" to "Human" in the eyes of the Coalition, when the fluff all implies that it should still be a Distinctive D-Bee (-4 Charisma for Coalition, likely to be swept up in any pogroms, etc.). Unearthly Beauty stacks with a Charisma build (and a Customized Form +2 Persuasion) to get a ridiculous +10 on Persuasion (+14 if all customization is focused on Charisma).

Hilariously, you can pick a race as normal, then become a Nightbane. D'Norr are probably the best choice for optimization, but any of the "can use PPE" races will work well.

I knew this was sounding familiar! Years ago; recently.
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Re: [SR] Feedback Wanted

#10 Postby Ndreare » Fri Apr 28, 2017 8:55 am

That first one looks to have never been finished. But the second one by Sitting Duck looks much better.

I think I will play around a bit more and change it at lunch time.

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Re: [SR] Feedback Wanted

#11 Postby Ndreare » Fri Apr 28, 2017 1:21 pm

Okay, I have been irresponsible and playing around with this more.

Hopefully it is better this time around. More thought and less haste.


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